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hey everybody how you doing today is uh

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UFO TV day uh we're chatting with a a

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brilliant guy who has uh well one

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written a book on Jay Alan heineck's

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life the close encounters man but

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there's a few cool TV programs on right

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now UFO witness and uh UFOs

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investigating the unknown which just

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came out both are Mark O'Connell

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projects and uh he even wrote for Star

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Trek Deep Space Nine this guy's been

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into this for years and uh he lets the

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Stars kind of shine in his Productions

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he's more behind the scenes but

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nonetheless a big enough guy big enough

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brain and super well spoken and just a

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nice guy so we're really happy to have

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him on the show I know Jay you're going

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to have some things to relate mufon wise

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and yeah I've seen the TV programs and I

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got some questions so gonna be a fun day

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today yeah I'm looking forward to it

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especially his muffon investigative

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career that he's done as well so he's

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been at it for a while it should be an

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interesting conversation for sure so

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with that we'll be right back in just a

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moment with Mark O'Connell right here on

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[Music]

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welcome back to another episode of UAP

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studies podcast my name is Louis Borges

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joining me as always my good buddy Mr

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Jason gilmette hey this is uh this is a

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good day we've uh we've done quite a few

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of interviews we mentioned that

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throughout a couple of episodes but this

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was all the combination of the one

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weekend's work and uh today we uh we

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close with Mark O'Connell which is

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joining us and uh I'm gonna let you do

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the intro my manual yeah absolutely

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we've never had a writer for Star Trek

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on our program I think that is awesome

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uh so Mark is the executive producer at

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anomaly entertainment uh offer of

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several books as I mentioned writer for

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starbtrack Deep Space Nine

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um he's a TV presenter you may have seen

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some of his programs UFO witness and

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investigating the unknown and he also

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wrote a book The Close Encounters man

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and that basically documents the life of

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Jay Alan heineck a very well known

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figure so big brain in the house today

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we're super excited to have them so

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welcome to the show Mr Mark O'Connell

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thanks guys it's great to be here yeah

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thanks for uh for agreeing to do this

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and we've had some of your colleagues on

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before Ben Henson Melissa Tittle from a

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UFO witness uh so we'll chat about UFOs

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and all that but for uh the beginning

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for anyone who doesn't know you or is

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not familiar with you maybe tell us a

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little bit about yourself what got you

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into this line of work and then why UFO

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related content

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the big question why UFOs you know there

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was a time a few years ago when I first

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started

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um blogging about UFOs and I would just

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start talking about it with my family

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and stuff and I just remember this one

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day when my oldest son

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um just sort of looked over at my wife

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and said we need to talk about dad

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like you guys it's really okay it's

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really okay I mean it's a hobby that's

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turned into sort of a profession I guess

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you know now that I've got a book

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published and had these TV shows

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so it's it's been a really fun Journey

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I've been I've been

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um crazy about space and UFOs and

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science fiction and science fact and for

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all my life and I I think I always trace

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it back to this moment when I was about

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three years old so I'm dating myself

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here it was 1963 and there was this

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brand new TV show

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called The Outer Limits that premiered

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in 1963 a lot of your listeners may be

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familiar with the show it was a science

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fiction Anthology show it was very dark

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and Moody and expressionistic and they

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had really these really brilliant

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cinematographers who just made every

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image look like dangerous and

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threatening and and they had great

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monsters that was the thing about the

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outer limits they had really really

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scary monsters to a three-year-old

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and I had this is one of my earliest if

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not the earliest conscious memory I've

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had is that my mom watching the pilot

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episode of the outer limits in 1963 and

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the monster appears it's this alien from

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that's made out of radiation

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scared The Living Daylights out of me

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and I remember running upstairs and just

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hiding around the corner and just saying

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just saying tell me when the monster

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goes away I'm not coming out of here

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until the monster goes away

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so I you know so I sat up there for the

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rest of the show because apparently my

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mom was not very sympathetic to me she

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kept watching the show

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it was the pilot she had to well yeah

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but I never knew that my mom was

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interested in that kind of stuff she

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usually went in for detective shows like

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Colombo and stuff but at any rate so

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that's kind of how the seed got planted

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it was that that traumatic moment when I

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was three years old when the the Galaxy

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being from the outer limits

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suddenly appeared on my TV and just

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scared me to death so that's just grown

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and grown I grew up in a really small

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town in Wisconsin my mom was one of the

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Town Librarians so she would always take

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me to the library with her

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uh and I love to read and this it was a

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small Library so they only had like this

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one

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narrow section of shelves that had you

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know the books about UFOs and Bigfoot

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and Bermuda Triangle and poltergeists

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and all that scary stuff so I would read

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these books and you know scare myself

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after death with the stories they told

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um but you know my Fascination just grew

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and grew and grew and then

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um about 10 or 12 years ago a friend of

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mine convinced me that I should start uh

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blogging about UFOs because it was

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something I knew enough about and I had

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an I would have fun talking about about

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uh the topic so I started doing that

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that grew into a podcast that the the

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you know it just it grew into all these

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unexpected things

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um but the best moment of all of that

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was when I was I was lucky enough to be

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able to do some research for my book The

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Close Encounters man

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um at this place in Chicago

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called kufos the center for UFO studies

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it was a foundation formed by J Allen

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heineck and the the scientific director

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of kufos was kind enough to let me come

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in and poke around his heinek files

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looking for things to write about in my

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blog

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and one one day when I was doing

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research there uh mark his name is Mark

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rodiger you may be familiar with him

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um Mark said you know I've been reading

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some of your uh blog and I'm really

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enjoying it I like your style and he

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said I'm wondering if you'd be

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interested in writing an account of Jay

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Allen heineck's career

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and I just yeah of course I would heck

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yeah that's the most amazing offer I've

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ever had that's that's great so I jumped

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on the opportunity

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I kind of shoved every other project off

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my desk

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that I could get away with postponing

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and just went Whole Hog into researching

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the book so that's uh you know and then

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like five years later the book was

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finally published there was a lot of

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research to be done it took me a long

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long time

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um and so the book has led to all sorts

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of other opportunities like you

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mentioned one of the TV shows UFOs

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investigating the unknown there's a

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whole story behind that that I'm sure

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we'll get to but I'm I'm really excited

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and really proud of that show uh it's a

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it's a five five part documentary

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that is currently streaming on Hulu

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and uh I am featured in episodes two and

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three because those are the episodes

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basically dealing with um the historical

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aspect of of the UFO phenomenon so

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project a lot of Project Blue Book stuff

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a lot of talk about uh Dr heineck

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um so that's that's where that's where I

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am today you just got the long version

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of my life story

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no that's good well that's what we want

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to know right that's right yeah yeah

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absolutely so

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um

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as as we all know there's a bit of a

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rabbit hole that you fall into when you

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get into the subject of ufology and it's

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many depths and layers and it seems like

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it's it transcends everything that we

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know in reality and affects people

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consciously and mentally and physically

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and all the above

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um as you're investigating this uh you

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know with the TV show and and like have

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you found that you've opened up more to

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different venues that that sort of or

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paths that you follow G sort of leads

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you down to like have you been more open

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to new ideas

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I would say yes

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um one thing I left out of my biography

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that I just gave you is that also it

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started out as part research for my uh

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for my

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um blog I signed on as a certified field

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investigator for mufan the mutual UFO

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Network and I did that for about five

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years and that was really invaluable to

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me

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um while writing the book because I

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really needed to I didn't realize this

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at the time when I first signed up I

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just thought it would be kind of a lark

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to be you know get get phone calls and

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say Mark UFO has been cited go

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investigate you know I thought that

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would be kind of fun which and it was

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um

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but uh

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what I learned from doing that work

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volunteering I did it about five years

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and I I investigated about 150 cases in

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five years and yeah but yeah

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so most of the time investigating simply

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means you spent a half hour on the phone

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with the witness and they you know

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filled in a few details from the written

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report that they had filed so so in you

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know investigating a case doesn't always

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mean you know you invest days and weeks

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in it sometimes it's a really very brief

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thing simply because there just isn't

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enough information in the report to

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really go much further than that

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but the big thing about I keep on

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getting distracted the big thing about

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volunteering to be an investigator for

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mufan was it enabled me to get this

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immediate

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glimpse into the witnesses state of mind

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what you know what kind of person

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first of all what kind of person sees a

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UFO second of all what kind of a person

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reports seeing a UFO

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the third of all how does that affect

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them and

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I found that I found that end of of the

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business to be the most fascinating it

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was so and I always considered it really

275
00:11:15,530 --> 00:11:11,810
for a great number of these uh of these

276
00:11:17,030 --> 00:11:15,540
folks reporting their UFO encounter

277
00:11:18,889 --> 00:11:17,040
um I was the first person they were ever

278
00:11:21,710 --> 00:11:18,899
sharing this story with

279
00:11:23,810 --> 00:11:21,720
and I really felt I really felt honored

280
00:11:25,670 --> 00:11:23,820
and privileged to be you know the person

281
00:11:27,230 --> 00:11:25,680
who's hearing this story for the first

282
00:11:29,269 --> 00:11:27,240
time because they're

283
00:11:31,130 --> 00:11:29,279
there are some of these stories are

284
00:11:33,290 --> 00:11:31,140
really fascinating and they'll make the

285
00:11:35,449 --> 00:11:33,300
hair on the back of your neck stand up

286
00:11:38,630 --> 00:11:35,459
they can be really chilling and really

287
00:11:40,970 --> 00:11:38,640
eerie and I certainly encountered plenty

288
00:11:43,190 --> 00:11:40,980
of those uh kinds of cases when I was

289
00:11:45,550 --> 00:11:43,200
when I was working for mufant but that

290
00:11:48,170 --> 00:11:45,560
was that was to answer your question

291
00:11:51,290 --> 00:11:48,180
that was the big thing that broadened my

292
00:11:52,850 --> 00:11:51,300
mind and made me start considering

293
00:11:54,530 --> 00:11:52,860
different ways to look at the phenomena

294
00:11:58,190 --> 00:11:54,540
I'm a great believer in not being

295
00:11:59,810 --> 00:11:58,200
certain I I kind of enjoy the fact that

296
00:12:02,750 --> 00:11:59,820
that there's so much uncertainty

297
00:12:05,329 --> 00:12:02,760
surrounding the phenomenon

298
00:12:07,310 --> 00:12:05,339
um but but working with and meeting and

299
00:12:09,829 --> 00:12:07,320
interviewing these these uh people who

300
00:12:12,470 --> 00:12:09,839
had experienced the UFO event was was a

301
00:12:14,750 --> 00:12:12,480
huge education uh met some really

302
00:12:18,170 --> 00:12:14,760
Fascinating People and heard some really

303
00:12:19,670 --> 00:12:18,180
and a mind-blowing stories yeah I was

304
00:12:21,170 --> 00:12:19,680
going to ask you in terms of doing a

305
00:12:24,170 --> 00:12:21,180
research for your book you're pouring

306
00:12:26,509 --> 00:12:24,180
over data and materials from the 50s I'm

307
00:12:28,310 --> 00:12:26,519
sure there was a certain language and

308
00:12:29,990 --> 00:12:28,320
kind of an opinion and a lot of the

309
00:12:32,269 --> 00:12:30,000
stuff that you would have read and all

310
00:12:34,190 --> 00:12:32,279
through the life of Jalen heineck and

311
00:12:36,590 --> 00:12:34,200
now you're producing content television

312
00:12:38,329 --> 00:12:36,600
shows where you're in charge of the

313
00:12:40,790 --> 00:12:38,339
dialogue and the verbiage and language

314
00:12:43,069 --> 00:12:40,800
used so have you noticed changes

315
00:12:44,750 --> 00:12:43,079
obviously there are changes but what

316
00:12:47,389 --> 00:12:44,760
specifically have you noticed from like

317
00:12:50,269 --> 00:12:47,399
the 50s until now how do we look at this

318
00:12:52,370 --> 00:12:50,279
topic and how do we put it into words or

319
00:12:55,190 --> 00:12:52,380
you know has there been a maturation so

320
00:12:56,930 --> 00:12:55,200
to speak of UFO dialogue yeah that's

321
00:12:58,250 --> 00:12:56,940
that's a really interesting question I I

322
00:13:00,650 --> 00:12:58,260
don't think I've really thought about it

323
00:13:03,170 --> 00:13:00,660
that way but I I can I think you're

324
00:13:05,629 --> 00:13:03,180
right I think that there was looking

325
00:13:08,269 --> 00:13:05,639
back over my research

326
00:13:10,310 --> 00:13:08,279
um going back to the old the old old

327
00:13:11,569 --> 00:13:10,320
stuff from you know the late 40s and

328
00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:11,579
early 50s

329
00:13:13,550 --> 00:13:12,890
there was

330
00:13:14,769 --> 00:13:13,560
[Music]

331
00:13:16,670 --> 00:13:14,779
um

332
00:13:19,850 --> 00:13:16,680
surprisingly

333
00:13:22,990 --> 00:13:19,860
at in that time frame

334
00:13:25,370 --> 00:13:23,000
there was a little more openness about

335
00:13:27,650 --> 00:13:25,380
UFO conversations

336
00:13:31,490 --> 00:13:27,660
people were still curious enough about

337
00:13:34,370 --> 00:13:31,500
and and not just you know UFO Buffs but

338
00:13:37,610 --> 00:13:34,380
everybody everybody was so curious about

339
00:13:40,610 --> 00:13:37,620
UFO stuff going on and science fiction

340
00:13:43,250 --> 00:13:40,620
was really becoming a huge genre in the

341
00:13:44,750 --> 00:13:43,260
movie industry uh throughout the 50s

342
00:13:47,150 --> 00:13:44,760
there were so many science fiction

343
00:13:48,829 --> 00:13:47,160
movies made about UFOs and alien

344
00:13:50,810 --> 00:13:48,839
invasions and

345
00:13:52,490 --> 00:13:50,820
people had that on the brain and there

346
00:13:55,550 --> 00:13:52,500
was you know there was the leftover

347
00:13:57,230 --> 00:13:55,560
paranoia from World War II and you know

348
00:13:59,269 --> 00:13:57,240
could these things be plotting another

349
00:14:01,370 --> 00:13:59,279
Pearl Harbor do we need to be worried

350
00:14:03,710 --> 00:14:01,380
that these things are going to harm us

351
00:14:06,470 --> 00:14:03,720
just really fascinating stuff so I think

352
00:14:10,790 --> 00:14:06,480
there was actually in a weird way a more

353
00:14:15,410 --> 00:14:10,800
a higher level of openness about

354
00:14:18,290 --> 00:14:15,420
how to talk about UFOs uh whereas now

355
00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:18,300
well now it's kind of come full circle I

356
00:14:23,210 --> 00:14:19,680
guess

357
00:14:25,610 --> 00:14:23,220
um but in the 80s and 90s that uh it

358
00:14:28,370 --> 00:14:25,620
became harder and harder I think to talk

359
00:14:31,310 --> 00:14:28,380
openly about UFOs because you know after

360
00:14:33,829 --> 00:14:31,320
20 or 30 years of the phenomenon people

361
00:14:35,810 --> 00:14:33,839
had become kind of jaded and I think a

362
00:14:37,910 --> 00:14:35,820
lot of that has to do with the fact that

363
00:14:41,509 --> 00:14:37,920
you know

364
00:14:44,269 --> 00:14:41,519
70 years later after the after the first

365
00:14:47,449 --> 00:14:44,279
real modern UFO event are we any closer

366
00:14:50,090 --> 00:14:47,459
to understanding the phenomenon uh not

367
00:14:52,069 --> 00:14:50,100
doesn't seem like we are to me that's

368
00:14:54,230 --> 00:14:52,079
one of my gripes with you followed you

369
00:14:56,329 --> 00:14:54,240
right now we don't really seem to have

370
00:14:59,389 --> 00:14:56,339
gotten very far

371
00:15:00,829 --> 00:14:59,399
um so uh yeah I'm not sure if that

372
00:15:02,870 --> 00:15:00,839
answers your question but that's kind of

373
00:15:05,569 --> 00:15:02,880
definitely that's kind of my uh I think

374
00:15:07,730 --> 00:15:05,579
right people would be less judgmental if

375
00:15:09,889 --> 00:15:07,740
it was a new and emerging thing now

376
00:15:11,750 --> 00:15:09,899
we've got 70 years to get foul and

377
00:15:13,970 --> 00:15:11,760
crusty over the fact that we still don't

378
00:15:16,129 --> 00:15:13,980
have proof and it may not be any closer

379
00:15:18,110 --> 00:15:16,139
than we thought we were back then yeah

380
00:15:19,750 --> 00:15:18,120
70 years of disappointment we'll do that

381
00:15:22,150 --> 00:15:19,760
to you yeah yeah

382
00:15:24,889 --> 00:15:22,160
it's also the um

383
00:15:26,930 --> 00:15:24,899
Global and acknowledgment that we should

384
00:15:28,189 --> 00:15:26,940
all agree that this is something that is

385
00:15:29,810 --> 00:15:28,199
happening something that people are

386
00:15:31,430 --> 00:15:29,820
witnessing every day

387
00:15:33,009 --> 00:15:31,440
and we haven't had that because there's

388
00:15:35,389 --> 00:15:33,019
been no

389
00:15:37,129 --> 00:15:35,399
uh no country really stepping forward

390
00:15:39,530 --> 00:15:37,139
and well there's been smaller countries

391
00:15:41,030 --> 00:15:39,540
but they're almost insignificant at this

392
00:15:43,069 --> 00:15:41,040
point when they're saying hey we're

393
00:15:44,870 --> 00:15:43,079
seeing things over our skies that don't

394
00:15:47,030 --> 00:15:44,880
make sense we're all waiting for the big

395
00:15:49,370 --> 00:15:47,040
countries and recently we've had that

396
00:15:51,410 --> 00:15:49,380
you know with uh the United States and

397
00:15:52,610 --> 00:15:51,420
Canada sort of uh cooperating and

398
00:15:55,970 --> 00:15:52,620
shooting a few things down over

399
00:15:58,189 --> 00:15:55,980
Aerospace uh but it hasn't really been

400
00:15:59,750 --> 00:15:58,199
you know really mentioned by other

401
00:16:01,490 --> 00:15:59,760
countries that they're having problems

402
00:16:03,829 --> 00:16:01,500
with UFOs even though they're very open

403
00:16:05,990 --> 00:16:03,839
with their information like France

404
00:16:08,329 --> 00:16:06,000
England Mexico is very open to that too

405
00:16:10,730 --> 00:16:08,339
but it seems like we're not validating

406
00:16:13,009 --> 00:16:10,740
the phenomenon globally until the United

407
00:16:15,410 --> 00:16:13,019
States officially stands up and says we

408
00:16:17,210 --> 00:16:15,420
have a problem and seems like what like

409
00:16:19,189 --> 00:16:17,220
every country including Canada where we

410
00:16:21,230 --> 00:16:19,199
live uh we're all on like you know

411
00:16:23,389 --> 00:16:21,240
holding our breaths like it's any moment

412
00:16:25,090 --> 00:16:23,399
now it's any moment now

413
00:16:27,769 --> 00:16:25,100
oh boy

414
00:16:31,069 --> 00:16:27,779
that puts the pressure on

415
00:16:32,569 --> 00:16:31,079
yeah absolutely but but not not saying

416
00:16:35,150 --> 00:16:32,579
that the United States needs to be the

417
00:16:37,069 --> 00:16:35,160
country that stands up and speak out but

418
00:16:38,749 --> 00:16:37,079
I think if it's uh you know something

419
00:16:40,850 --> 00:16:38,759
that we need to all start talking about

420
00:16:43,249 --> 00:16:40,860
like you know are you also experiencing

421
00:16:46,310 --> 00:16:43,259
things over your airspace that doesn't

422
00:16:48,889 --> 00:16:46,320
make sense you know uh physically and

423
00:16:51,650 --> 00:16:48,899
what we understand of reality this

424
00:16:53,870 --> 00:16:51,660
subject is so in depth that uh you know

425
00:16:56,569 --> 00:16:53,880
it's not just a technology but who's

426
00:16:58,670 --> 00:16:56,579
behind the technology that's that's the

427
00:16:59,990 --> 00:16:58,680
the part I'm more fascinated by this

428
00:17:01,790 --> 00:17:00,000
phenomenon is

429
00:17:03,769 --> 00:17:01,800
if we think we're impressed with this

430
00:17:05,990 --> 00:17:03,779
you know what might be just a Toyota to

431
00:17:08,150 --> 00:17:06,000
them uh you know we're we're Amazed by

432
00:17:10,669 --> 00:17:08,160
what their capabilities are imagine what

433
00:17:12,230 --> 00:17:10,679
else they have up their sleeve and yeah

434
00:17:14,030 --> 00:17:12,240
that's part of the phenomenon that to me

435
00:17:16,429 --> 00:17:14,040
I've always been fascinated by

436
00:17:18,110 --> 00:17:16,439
um the more that you investigate do you

437
00:17:20,210 --> 00:17:18,120
have any favorite stories that that

438
00:17:21,530 --> 00:17:20,220
really are are good or stuck with you

439
00:17:24,110 --> 00:17:21,540
over the years

440
00:17:26,390 --> 00:17:24,120
oh yeah one of one of my favorite well I

441
00:17:27,289 --> 00:17:26,400
give you a couple examples from my mufon

442
00:17:31,669 --> 00:17:27,299
work

443
00:17:34,310 --> 00:17:31,679
one was a um a report had been filed by

444
00:17:36,650 --> 00:17:34,320
a former policeman he was at that point

445
00:17:38,630 --> 00:17:36,660
he was an educator and I believe he was

446
00:17:40,310 --> 00:17:38,640
teaching at like a police academy kind

447
00:17:42,770 --> 00:17:40,320
of kind of a place

448
00:17:45,230 --> 00:17:42,780
um and and he was African-American which

449
00:17:47,270 --> 00:17:45,240
is interesting because if you look at

450
00:17:50,510 --> 00:17:47,280
the overall UFO phenomenon the presence

451
00:17:53,810 --> 00:17:50,520
of African Americans in this whole thing

452
00:17:56,390 --> 00:17:53,820
is strangely small

453
00:17:58,850 --> 00:17:56,400
um so so I took note of that that was of

454
00:18:01,130 --> 00:17:58,860
interest but he he told me the story

455
00:18:03,830 --> 00:18:01,140
about how he and his wife

456
00:18:05,210 --> 00:18:03,840
several years earlier

457
00:18:07,850 --> 00:18:05,220
um now this is in the state of Wisconsin

458
00:18:10,010 --> 00:18:07,860
this was where I was for a while for a

459
00:18:12,710 --> 00:18:10,020
while I was like the assistant State uh

460
00:18:14,210 --> 00:18:12,720
director or move on so I'm interviewing

461
00:18:15,770 --> 00:18:14,220
this gentleman and he's telling me this

462
00:18:18,289 --> 00:18:15,780
story about how he and his wife and

463
00:18:20,990 --> 00:18:18,299
their young child were uh driving to a

464
00:18:23,510 --> 00:18:21,000
small a rural town in northern Wisconsin

465
00:18:25,909 --> 00:18:23,520
uh to visit with some friends and just

466
00:18:28,010 --> 00:18:25,919
stay overnight at their at their house

467
00:18:30,049 --> 00:18:28,020
so they're driving through the night on

468
00:18:31,669 --> 00:18:30,059
this and this is like the classic UFO

469
00:18:35,690 --> 00:18:31,679
setup right they're driving late at

470
00:18:38,870 --> 00:18:35,700
night on this deserted Highway in the

471
00:18:41,630 --> 00:18:38,880
middle of nowhere in rural Wisconsin and

472
00:18:43,610 --> 00:18:41,640
they see something they see a what they

473
00:18:45,710 --> 00:18:43,620
you know initially think is a star or a

474
00:18:48,830 --> 00:18:45,720
planet up in the sky you know moving

475
00:18:51,890 --> 00:18:48,840
across moving across the night sky they

476
00:18:54,230 --> 00:18:51,900
take notice of that of course and they

477
00:18:55,909 --> 00:18:54,240
start paying attention to where this

478
00:18:57,890 --> 00:18:55,919
thing is going and what it's doing and

479
00:19:01,549 --> 00:18:57,900
what it ends up doing is

480
00:19:03,950 --> 00:19:01,559
flashing pretty close to their car and

481
00:19:07,070 --> 00:19:03,960
then settling down into

482
00:19:09,470 --> 00:19:07,080
some sort of Gully or depression a

483
00:19:10,970 --> 00:19:09,480
little bit off to the side of the road

484
00:19:13,130 --> 00:19:10,980
they're on

485
00:19:17,150 --> 00:19:13,140
it just sort of disappears into this

486
00:19:19,010 --> 00:19:17,160
into this Gully and they

487
00:19:21,890 --> 00:19:19,020
they're too nervous to stop and like

488
00:19:23,390 --> 00:19:21,900
look at it that they want to get now

489
00:19:25,430 --> 00:19:23,400
they want to just get to their friend's

490
00:19:26,990 --> 00:19:25,440
house right so that's what they do they

491
00:19:28,370 --> 00:19:27,000
have they hightail it to their friend's

492
00:19:29,930 --> 00:19:28,380
house

493
00:19:31,549 --> 00:19:29,940
um and the friends say hey where have

494
00:19:33,710 --> 00:19:31,559
you guys been you know you're like 15

495
00:19:37,370 --> 00:19:33,720
minutes late from when we expected you

496
00:19:39,289 --> 00:19:37,380
so you know wow another red flag a

497
00:19:40,250 --> 00:19:39,299
missing Time episode is that what we're

498
00:19:42,890 --> 00:19:40,260
looking at

499
00:19:44,210 --> 00:19:42,900
and so they you know they're hanging out

500
00:19:46,310 --> 00:19:44,220
with their friends they kind of forget

501
00:19:47,029 --> 00:19:46,320
about what happened on the drive and

502
00:19:48,590 --> 00:19:47,039
they

503
00:19:50,029 --> 00:19:48,600
spend the night their friends next

504
00:19:51,890 --> 00:19:50,039
morning next morning they're driving

505
00:19:54,650 --> 00:19:51,900
back home and they go back of course

506
00:19:56,930 --> 00:19:54,660
along the same Highway and they get to

507
00:19:58,370 --> 00:19:56,940
where they spotted this thing the night

508
00:20:00,110 --> 00:19:58,380
before

509
00:20:03,409 --> 00:20:00,120
and

510
00:20:06,049 --> 00:20:03,419
wow that's weird there wasn't a house

511
00:20:07,970 --> 00:20:06,059
there yesterday was there and there so

512
00:20:09,650 --> 00:20:07,980
so and they're but they're not sure if

513
00:20:12,049 --> 00:20:09,660
it was even a house they were looking at

514
00:20:13,310 --> 00:20:12,059
you know you get to this point in some

515
00:20:15,230 --> 00:20:13,320
of these reports where the people

516
00:20:17,690 --> 00:20:15,240
they've experienced something that we

517
00:20:19,130 --> 00:20:17,700
don't have words for right you know and

518
00:20:21,110 --> 00:20:19,140
that was definitely the case with with

519
00:20:22,970 --> 00:20:21,120
this couple they they

520
00:20:25,490 --> 00:20:22,980
they were just they were left in a

521
00:20:27,529 --> 00:20:25,500
complete confusion over what they

522
00:20:29,090 --> 00:20:27,539
actually saw and did they even see

523
00:20:31,090 --> 00:20:29,100
anything it was one of these you know

524
00:20:34,010 --> 00:20:31,100
they ended up just doubting their own

525
00:20:36,110 --> 00:20:34,020
senses and doubting their own reason

526
00:20:37,669 --> 00:20:36,120
their own rationality

527
00:20:39,230 --> 00:20:37,679
so and that was one of those cases that

528
00:20:41,510 --> 00:20:39,240
kind of made the hair in the back line I

529
00:20:43,310 --> 00:20:41,520
stand up because he was you know you

530
00:20:46,730 --> 00:20:43,320
even though you're just on the phone you

531
00:20:49,010 --> 00:20:46,740
can tell uh when you can you can sense

532
00:20:50,930 --> 00:20:49,020
stress in a person's voice you can you

533
00:20:53,510 --> 00:20:50,940
can sense fear in a person's voice

534
00:20:55,610 --> 00:20:53,520
that's not that much of a stretch and

535
00:20:57,830 --> 00:20:55,620
with this gentleman in particular there

536
00:21:00,289 --> 00:20:57,840
was definitely you know stress in his

537
00:21:03,169 --> 00:21:00,299
voice he had really this event had

538
00:21:05,210 --> 00:21:03,179
really stuck with him and it haunted him

539
00:21:05,810 --> 00:21:05,220
and

540
00:21:09,110 --> 00:21:05,820
um

541
00:21:10,970 --> 00:21:09,120
as an investigator I would love to have

542
00:21:13,010 --> 00:21:10,980
more than one witness

543
00:21:16,549 --> 00:21:13,020
so I asked him would it be possible to

544
00:21:18,950 --> 00:21:16,559
talk to your ex-wife and he he very

545
00:21:21,110 --> 00:21:18,960
sadly he just said no I'm afraid not

546
00:21:22,669 --> 00:21:21,120
he's like she she refuses to talk about

547
00:21:24,950 --> 00:21:22,679
this to this day

548
00:21:27,590 --> 00:21:24,960
she just clammed up about it you know

549
00:21:29,810 --> 00:21:27,600
when when it happened she absolutely

550
00:21:31,310 --> 00:21:29,820
refuses to talk about it so that was a

551
00:21:33,649 --> 00:21:31,320
huge disappointment because having a

552
00:21:35,810 --> 00:21:33,659
corroborating witness would be obviously

553
00:21:38,450 --> 00:21:35,820
really really huge

554
00:21:41,570 --> 00:21:38,460
um but I but yeah his his story really

555
00:21:44,810 --> 00:21:41,580
stood out because it was just so it was

556
00:21:47,570 --> 00:21:44,820
unique and his the way he told the story

557
00:21:48,890 --> 00:21:47,580
I sound very convincing

558
00:21:50,870 --> 00:21:48,900
um you know again it's one of these

559
00:21:52,310 --> 00:21:50,880
things where you have to think well what

560
00:21:54,649 --> 00:21:52,320
does this person have to gain by

561
00:21:56,870 --> 00:21:54,659
reporting this they actually they have

562
00:21:58,669 --> 00:21:56,880
nothing to gain except to just get it

563
00:21:59,870 --> 00:21:58,679
off their chest and that was here's

564
00:22:02,270 --> 00:21:59,880
another really interesting thing I

565
00:22:08,330 --> 00:22:02,280
learned working for mufon

566
00:22:10,490 --> 00:22:08,340
most of the UFO Witnesses I talked to

567
00:22:13,190 --> 00:22:10,500
have two questions right off the bat

568
00:22:16,070 --> 00:22:13,200
number one question is what did I see

569
00:22:17,930 --> 00:22:16,080
and the number two question is has

570
00:22:20,330 --> 00:22:17,940
anyone else seen it

571
00:22:23,090 --> 00:22:20,340
and it got to the point where that sort

572
00:22:24,770 --> 00:22:23,100
of became my litmus test if if I was

573
00:22:27,529 --> 00:22:24,780
interviewing somebody and they asked

574
00:22:29,990 --> 00:22:27,539
those two questions I'd think

575
00:22:33,110 --> 00:22:30,000
yes I you just you just made me a

576
00:22:35,210 --> 00:22:33,120
believer in your story because that is

577
00:22:37,909 --> 00:22:35,220
that is like it's just such a perfectly

578
00:22:41,630 --> 00:22:37,919
human reaction you know to what's to

579
00:22:43,070 --> 00:22:41,640
what's going on and conversely if I was

580
00:22:45,110 --> 00:22:43,080
interviewing a witness and they didn't

581
00:22:47,029 --> 00:22:45,120
ask those questions

582
00:22:49,130 --> 00:22:47,039
I you know I'd be maybe a little a

583
00:22:51,289 --> 00:22:49,140
little more skeptical about about their

584
00:22:53,690 --> 00:22:51,299
claims and their stories I also had one

585
00:22:56,630 --> 00:22:53,700
really weird incident where

586
00:22:59,810 --> 00:22:56,640
over the course of a couple months I

587
00:23:00,770 --> 00:22:59,820
investigated uh events with two young

588
00:23:03,289 --> 00:23:00,780
women

589
00:23:05,270 --> 00:23:03,299
who both grew up in Wisconsin they were

590
00:23:07,310 --> 00:23:05,280
about the same age they actually kind of

591
00:23:09,409 --> 00:23:07,320
looked like they could be sisters

592
00:23:11,450 --> 00:23:09,419
and it was months but months between

593
00:23:13,130 --> 00:23:11,460
their reports so it's not like I was

594
00:23:15,049 --> 00:23:13,140
interviewing both at the same time I

595
00:23:16,549 --> 00:23:15,059
interviewed Juan at this point and then

596
00:23:17,630 --> 00:23:16,559
several months later I interviewed the

597
00:23:19,549 --> 00:23:17,640
other one

598
00:23:21,409 --> 00:23:19,559
and it was just uncanny to me how

599
00:23:23,930 --> 00:23:21,419
similar their experiences were because

600
00:23:26,330 --> 00:23:23,940
they involved weird weird nightmares

601
00:23:28,390 --> 00:23:26,340
weird dreams that they weren't sure if

602
00:23:31,789 --> 00:23:28,400
they were actually dreams or reality

603
00:23:33,529 --> 00:23:31,799
that one also kind of creeped me out the

604
00:23:35,210 --> 00:23:33,539
trouble is it's like where do you go

605
00:23:36,529 --> 00:23:35,220
with that how do you how do you

606
00:23:38,330 --> 00:23:36,539
investigate it what are you actually

607
00:23:40,669 --> 00:23:38,340
investigating it can be very very

608
00:23:42,289 --> 00:23:40,679
frustrating because we don't always know

609
00:23:44,270 --> 00:23:42,299
what we're looking for

610
00:23:46,850 --> 00:23:44,280
yeah and sometimes there's a move on

611
00:23:48,169 --> 00:23:46,860
field investigator you're you know sort

612
00:23:49,850 --> 00:23:48,179
of thrown into something that might be

613
00:23:52,070 --> 00:23:49,860
out of your league but there's nobody

614
00:23:54,289 --> 00:23:52,080
else investigating it so you have no

615
00:23:57,049 --> 00:23:54,299
choice you're the go-to guy regardless

616
00:23:59,149 --> 00:23:57,059
of the situation right yeah

617
00:24:01,310 --> 00:23:59,159
have you found that a lot of people are

618
00:24:03,049 --> 00:24:01,320
more open to discuss their their

619
00:24:05,270 --> 00:24:03,059
experiences with somebody like yourself

620
00:24:06,649 --> 00:24:05,280
that's been investigating this and I

621
00:24:07,909 --> 00:24:06,659
mean you're out there right like you're

622
00:24:09,590 --> 00:24:07,919
you're promoting that you're

623
00:24:11,690 --> 00:24:09,600
investigating this so have you had

624
00:24:12,590 --> 00:24:11,700
people that surprised you and and come

625
00:24:15,169 --> 00:24:12,600
forward

626
00:24:18,370 --> 00:24:15,179
Jason I've had I have had so many times

627
00:24:21,649 --> 00:24:18,380
where I've been in some sort of social

628
00:24:25,250 --> 00:24:21,659
uh situation at a party or a backyard

629
00:24:27,409 --> 00:24:25,260
cookout or whatever and of course all my

630
00:24:29,210 --> 00:24:27,419
friends know I'm doing this stuff and

631
00:24:31,310 --> 00:24:29,220
they knew that I was writing a book and

632
00:24:33,529 --> 00:24:31,320
all this stuff but so many times when

633
00:24:35,450 --> 00:24:33,539
I'd be at one of these gatherings

634
00:24:37,310 --> 00:24:35,460
and and somebody out of the blue would

635
00:24:38,810 --> 00:24:37,320
say oh Mark I hear you know I hear

636
00:24:40,430 --> 00:24:38,820
you're writing a book about UFO because

637
00:24:41,630 --> 00:24:40,440
I'd love to hear about that and I you

638
00:24:43,250 --> 00:24:41,640
know I started giving them the sales

639
00:24:46,010 --> 00:24:43,260
pitch on the book

640
00:24:48,169 --> 00:24:46,020
and what'll happen very often is

641
00:24:50,210 --> 00:24:48,179
somebody who's been kind of quiet and

642
00:24:52,490 --> 00:24:50,220
kind of on the edge of the group

643
00:24:55,250 --> 00:24:52,500
after I get done you know saying you

644
00:24:57,049 --> 00:24:55,260
know describing my work this quiet

645
00:24:59,390 --> 00:24:57,059
person out on the fringes will say you

646
00:25:00,590 --> 00:24:59,400
know I I hadn't experience like that

647
00:25:02,330 --> 00:25:00,600
once

648
00:25:04,730 --> 00:25:02,340
and I'll say oh would you like to talk

649
00:25:07,750 --> 00:25:04,740
about it and that you know if they if

650
00:25:10,250 --> 00:25:07,760
they sense that they they are in a safe

651
00:25:12,289 --> 00:25:10,260
ridicule-free Zone they'll talk they'll

652
00:25:14,810 --> 00:25:12,299
tell you their story and like I said

653
00:25:16,070 --> 00:25:14,820
before very often you'll find that you

654
00:25:17,870 --> 00:25:16,080
know you're you're the first person

655
00:25:20,029 --> 00:25:17,880
they've ever shared this story with that

656
00:25:22,130 --> 00:25:20,039
that has happened so many times I can't

657
00:25:25,310 --> 00:25:22,140
even I can't even come up with a number

658
00:25:27,830 --> 00:25:25,320
but it's very typical and it teaches me

659
00:25:31,370 --> 00:25:27,840
two things first of all a lot of people

660
00:25:33,950 --> 00:25:31,380
are seeing UFOs and not reporting it at

661
00:25:35,930 --> 00:25:33,960
all and second of all

662
00:25:37,789 --> 00:25:35,940
um they really really want to tell

663
00:25:40,250 --> 00:25:37,799
somebody about what they've experienced

664
00:25:44,029 --> 00:25:40,260
but they've never felt brave enough to

665
00:25:46,789 --> 00:25:44,039
do it so so I always try to make

666
00:25:48,529 --> 00:25:46,799
um UFO Witnesses just feel like they're

667
00:25:50,390 --> 00:25:48,539
being listened to they're being you know

668
00:25:52,490 --> 00:25:50,400
somebody's paying attention and I'm I'm

669
00:25:56,269 --> 00:25:52,500
listening to their story and I'm not

670
00:25:58,310 --> 00:25:56,279
rolling my eyes or yawning you know I'm

671
00:26:01,070 --> 00:25:58,320
I'm focused on them I want to know their

672
00:26:03,110 --> 00:26:01,080
story I want to know their truth so

673
00:26:04,850 --> 00:26:03,120
um that's a very powerful experience I

674
00:26:08,269 --> 00:26:04,860
gotta say you know I signed on with

675
00:26:10,789 --> 00:26:08,279
mufon really not knowing what to expect

676
00:26:13,010 --> 00:26:10,799
um and and it became as I've been saying

677
00:26:16,070 --> 00:26:13,020
it just became really a pretty intense

678
00:26:18,169 --> 00:26:16,080
uh learning experience for me so after

679
00:26:20,029 --> 00:26:18,179
this many years of researching hearing

680
00:26:22,250 --> 00:26:20,039
people's accounts you know Gathering

681
00:26:24,169 --> 00:26:22,260
data for books and TV series and trying

682
00:26:26,330 --> 00:26:24,179
to make it factual I want to get your

683
00:26:28,549 --> 00:26:26,340
thoughts or at least your best guess as

684
00:26:31,549 --> 00:26:28,559
to what do you think this phenomenon is

685
00:26:34,549 --> 00:26:31,559
everybody has a cool individual take on

686
00:26:36,830 --> 00:26:34,559
it I'm curious to know yours

687
00:26:38,810 --> 00:26:36,840
well let me let me preface this by

688
00:26:41,269 --> 00:26:38,820
saying I'm one of the I'm one of the

689
00:26:43,730 --> 00:26:41,279
people who

690
00:26:46,970 --> 00:26:43,740
um so much of the current state of

691
00:26:49,490 --> 00:26:46,980
ufology is fixated on Nuts and Bolts

692
00:26:51,890 --> 00:26:49,500
nuts and bolts objects nuts and bolts

693
00:26:53,630 --> 00:26:51,900
crafts or spaceships whatever you want

694
00:26:55,850 --> 00:26:53,640
to call them

695
00:26:58,010 --> 00:26:55,860
um and I love playing around with that

696
00:27:00,049 --> 00:26:58,020
idea believe me I told you my background

697
00:27:03,490 --> 00:27:00,059
with science fiction and science fiction

698
00:27:07,730 --> 00:27:03,500
movies and aliens and stuff so I I I

699
00:27:09,529 --> 00:27:07,740
completely understand and appreciate

700
00:27:11,630 --> 00:27:09,539
that point of view but at the same time

701
00:27:14,029 --> 00:27:11,640
I always feel like but but but but but

702
00:27:16,190 --> 00:27:14,039
we don't know that we don't know that

703
00:27:18,950 --> 00:27:16,200
they're solid objects we just don't know

704
00:27:20,690 --> 00:27:18,960
and we may never know and you got to be

705
00:27:22,970 --> 00:27:20,700
okay with that I think there you know

706
00:27:24,590 --> 00:27:22,980
you can't you can't force a conclusion

707
00:27:25,970 --> 00:27:24,600
and say well

708
00:27:27,649 --> 00:27:25,980
we've been sending this long enough

709
00:27:29,570 --> 00:27:27,659
let's just call time of death let's just

710
00:27:31,610 --> 00:27:29,580
say they're physical objects they've

711
00:27:33,769 --> 00:27:31,620
come from another planet and they're

712
00:27:35,810 --> 00:27:33,779
here to observe us all of which may be

713
00:27:37,850 --> 00:27:35,820
true but we also have to consider the

714
00:27:39,950 --> 00:27:37,860
fact that it may be something completely

715
00:27:41,570 --> 00:27:39,960
different like Dr heinek used to say

716
00:27:43,730 --> 00:27:41,580
every once in a while during an

717
00:27:45,649 --> 00:27:43,740
interview he would say

718
00:27:47,750 --> 00:27:45,659
you know this could be something that's

719
00:27:51,049 --> 00:27:47,760
just completely beyond our ability to

720
00:27:52,909 --> 00:27:51,059
understand yeah and I and I think he's I

721
00:27:55,669 --> 00:27:52,919
think he makes a valid point we may

722
00:27:57,950 --> 00:27:55,679
never be able to understand it I I when

723
00:28:01,310 --> 00:27:57,960
I think of what I believe in about UFOs

724
00:28:03,590 --> 00:28:01,320
I don't have like a set image or or

725
00:28:05,450 --> 00:28:03,600
scheme or whatever for exactly what I

726
00:28:07,370 --> 00:28:05,460
think they are

727
00:28:09,529 --> 00:28:07,380
um I'm like I said earlier I'm I'm

728
00:28:11,330 --> 00:28:09,539
comfortable with not knowing I think I

729
00:28:12,409 --> 00:28:11,340
think not knowing is kind of one of the

730
00:28:15,110 --> 00:28:12,419
thrills

731
00:28:17,029 --> 00:28:15,120
of working in this field not not knowing

732
00:28:18,890 --> 00:28:17,039
what you're looking for and not knowing

733
00:28:21,830 --> 00:28:18,900
what you'll find

734
00:28:23,450 --> 00:28:21,840
um but you you end up having a lot of uh

735
00:28:25,310 --> 00:28:23,460
really interesting adventures and

736
00:28:26,210 --> 00:28:25,320
experiences along the way that's for

737
00:28:28,190 --> 00:28:26,220
sure

738
00:28:30,769 --> 00:28:28,200
yeah and it sort of teaches you too that

739
00:28:32,750 --> 00:28:30,779
reality is is a lot more than we think

740
00:28:35,350 --> 00:28:32,760
it is because it opens up that

741
00:28:38,769 --> 00:28:35,360
possibility like yeah

742
00:28:42,289 --> 00:28:38,779
absolutely yeah it could be

743
00:28:44,330 --> 00:28:42,299
inter-dimensional or extra-term pastoral

744
00:28:46,130 --> 00:28:44,340
or ultra-terrestrial just all these

745
00:28:48,470 --> 00:28:46,140
possibilities and Louis and I always say

746
00:28:50,630 --> 00:28:48,480
it could be all of the above it would be

747
00:28:52,250 --> 00:28:50,640
such a complicated thing that even if

748
00:28:54,230 --> 00:28:52,260
the government wanted to come out and

749
00:28:56,090 --> 00:28:54,240
and say here's what we know

750
00:28:57,710 --> 00:28:56,100
that would freak the public out saying

751
00:29:00,409 --> 00:28:57,720
that's probably all of the above and we

752
00:29:02,690 --> 00:29:00,419
can't control any you know coming and

753
00:29:05,149 --> 00:29:02,700
goings of these entities that they'll do

754
00:29:07,549 --> 00:29:05,159
as they will uh even if we were speaking

755
00:29:09,470 --> 00:29:07,559
with Kevin day and he thinks no way

756
00:29:12,169 --> 00:29:09,480
there's no way that we can defend

757
00:29:15,169 --> 00:29:12,179
against that kind of Technology like we

758
00:29:18,110 --> 00:29:15,179
he said we we'd get more luck if we

759
00:29:21,169 --> 00:29:18,120
prayed uh than uh if we actually use our

760
00:29:23,169 --> 00:29:21,179
technology and what we've seen and what

761
00:29:26,930 --> 00:29:23,179
uh you know you've discovered and

762
00:29:29,930 --> 00:29:26,940
investigated uh these crafts don't they

763
00:29:32,510 --> 00:29:29,940
don't operate in any way that we

764
00:29:34,310 --> 00:29:32,520
understand uh not only flight but the

765
00:29:36,950 --> 00:29:34,320
consciousness of it like how it

766
00:29:39,769 --> 00:29:36,960
Maneuvers and it avoids collisions in

767
00:29:41,690 --> 00:29:39,779
the sky stops on a dime it goes at right

768
00:29:44,570 --> 00:29:41,700
angles out of you know at full speed and

769
00:29:46,370 --> 00:29:44,580
never loses speed or momentum we can't

770
00:29:48,169 --> 00:29:46,380
do that as humans that's not and

771
00:29:51,289 --> 00:29:48,179
physically we couldn't even be able to

772
00:29:54,310 --> 00:29:51,299
survive that so as you're investigating

773
00:29:56,750 --> 00:29:54,320
this uh have you found that like any

774
00:29:59,510 --> 00:29:56,760
information on why we were seeing

775
00:30:02,450 --> 00:29:59,520
saucers before and now we're seeing orbs

776
00:30:03,950 --> 00:30:02,460
a lot more than than before so what do

777
00:30:05,510 --> 00:30:03,960
you have a theory on why that that

778
00:30:06,649 --> 00:30:05,520
transition between what people are

779
00:30:09,889 --> 00:30:06,659
seeing

780
00:30:12,950 --> 00:30:09,899
well uh first I'll say

781
00:30:15,230 --> 00:30:12,960
um when when people ask me if I you know

782
00:30:18,230 --> 00:30:15,240
if I believe in UFOs or ask me what they

783
00:30:19,669 --> 00:30:18,240
are my my answer

784
00:30:24,649 --> 00:30:19,679
is

785
00:30:27,409 --> 00:30:24,659
to the UFO phenomenon

786
00:30:30,049 --> 00:30:27,419
those that's my belief I don't know what

787
00:30:32,330 --> 00:30:30,059
that reality is I we may never know what

788
00:30:35,330 --> 00:30:32,340
it is but as I was saying before it's

789
00:30:36,769 --> 00:30:35,340
kind of fun trying to find out but you

790
00:30:40,370 --> 00:30:36,779
what you were talking about though Jason

791
00:30:42,409 --> 00:30:40,380
kind of was making me think of how um

792
00:30:45,169 --> 00:30:42,419
I've always been really interested in

793
00:30:47,590 --> 00:30:45,179
the fact that there's a duality to the

794
00:30:51,470 --> 00:30:47,600
phenomenon that the

795
00:30:53,990 --> 00:30:51,480
the um a UFO can seem to be it can

796
00:30:56,750 --> 00:30:54,000
behave like a solid object in one in one

797
00:30:59,149 --> 00:30:56,760
moment and a moment later it can behave

798
00:31:03,350 --> 00:30:59,159
like something non-physical completely

799
00:31:04,370 --> 00:31:03,360
non-physical like yeah not imaginary but

800
00:31:06,529 --> 00:31:04,380
um

801
00:31:08,930 --> 00:31:06,539
you know something that exists on a

802
00:31:10,630 --> 00:31:08,940
different different plane than what

803
00:31:12,889 --> 00:31:10,640
we're used to

804
00:31:14,630 --> 00:31:12,899
experiencing I had a really interesting

805
00:31:16,549 --> 00:31:14,640
talk one of the one of the most exciting

806
00:31:18,110 --> 00:31:16,559
interviews I did for my book was with

807
00:31:21,649 --> 00:31:18,120
Douglas Trumbull who did the special

808
00:31:23,930 --> 00:31:21,659
effects for 2001. he did the special

809
00:31:26,029 --> 00:31:23,940
effects for Blade Runner for Star Trek

810
00:31:28,610 --> 00:31:26,039
the motion picture he's just he was he's

811
00:31:30,409 --> 00:31:28,620
always been one of my idols and to get a

812
00:31:32,090 --> 00:31:30,419
chance to actually visit him at his home

813
00:31:34,490 --> 00:31:32,100
and interview him was one of the one of

814
00:31:36,889 --> 00:31:34,500
the biggest Thrills of my life but Doug

815
00:31:39,769 --> 00:31:36,899
had this really interesting Theory

816
00:31:43,610 --> 00:31:39,779
he said have you ever noticed how

817
00:31:46,990 --> 00:31:43,620
in so many UFO encounter cases

818
00:31:49,970 --> 00:31:47,000
that the event begins with the witnesses

819
00:31:53,090 --> 00:31:49,980
seeing something in the sky that gets

820
00:31:55,510 --> 00:31:53,100
closer and closer and closer to them

821
00:31:58,850 --> 00:31:55,520
and then you know becomes this weird

822
00:32:02,330 --> 00:31:58,860
glowing craft or whatever but he said

823
00:32:04,070 --> 00:32:02,340
then when the event is over

824
00:32:07,130 --> 00:32:04,080
the object doesn't

825
00:32:10,130 --> 00:32:07,140
repeat its movements as it leaves it

826
00:32:12,350 --> 00:32:10,140
just disappears I thought and and so

827
00:32:13,730 --> 00:32:12,360
Doug was like so what if they're using

828
00:32:18,110 --> 00:32:13,740
some sort of

829
00:32:19,669 --> 00:32:18,120
propulsion or navigation system that

830
00:32:23,450 --> 00:32:19,679
um

831
00:32:26,029 --> 00:32:23,460
is it hasn't has enough room for doubt

832
00:32:27,590 --> 00:32:26,039
that they don't want to materialize too

833
00:32:29,389 --> 00:32:27,600
close to the planet Earth because that

834
00:32:31,130 --> 00:32:29,399
would be dangerous so instead they

835
00:32:33,649 --> 00:32:31,140
approach from a distance

836
00:32:37,250 --> 00:32:33,659
and they and they let the perspective

837
00:32:39,230 --> 00:32:37,260
witness see them coming okay but then

838
00:32:40,909 --> 00:32:39,240
when it's time to go they don't have to

839
00:32:42,110 --> 00:32:40,919
worry about their coordinates because

840
00:32:44,029 --> 00:32:42,120
they know exactly where they're going

841
00:32:45,649 --> 00:32:44,039
back to so boom they just seem to

842
00:32:46,789 --> 00:32:45,659
disappear or Zoom away at a million

843
00:32:49,789 --> 00:32:46,799
miles an hour

844
00:32:51,169 --> 00:32:49,799
I got such a kick out of that theory I

845
00:32:53,029 --> 00:32:51,179
still think about that every once in a

846
00:32:55,010 --> 00:32:53,039
while it's because it's like you're

847
00:32:57,049 --> 00:32:55,020
Genius of course that actually that

848
00:32:59,090 --> 00:32:57,059
actually fits the facts as much as you

849
00:33:01,130 --> 00:32:59,100
can fit you know yeah whatever you

850
00:33:03,830 --> 00:33:01,140
decide the facts are but I thought that

851
00:33:06,289 --> 00:33:03,840
was a really brilliant take from Doug on

852
00:33:08,330 --> 00:33:06,299
you know why why they behave the way

853
00:33:09,769 --> 00:33:08,340
they do but he was really into this idea

854
00:33:12,950 --> 00:33:09,779
of

855
00:33:16,430 --> 00:33:12,960
was he was um

856
00:33:19,430 --> 00:33:16,440
he was previewing a demo reel of this

857
00:33:22,610 --> 00:33:19,440
movie he wanted to produce and he he was

858
00:33:23,930 --> 00:33:22,620
using this unbelievably sophisticated uh

859
00:33:26,509 --> 00:33:23,940
3D

860
00:33:27,769 --> 00:33:26,519
um cinematography system it was really

861
00:33:30,590 --> 00:33:27,779
really cool

862
00:33:32,690 --> 00:33:30,600
but the UFOs in this short film that he

863
00:33:34,730 --> 00:33:32,700
made that he was previewing

864
00:33:38,330 --> 00:33:34,740
the UFOs

865
00:33:41,630 --> 00:33:38,340
he actually captured an image of

866
00:33:44,029 --> 00:33:41,640
something that is solid one moment and

867
00:33:45,889 --> 00:33:44,039
then his gaseous the next moment and

868
00:33:47,990 --> 00:33:45,899
then is something completely beyond our

869
00:33:49,789 --> 00:33:48,000
comprehension the next moment and it's

870
00:33:52,250 --> 00:33:49,799
all just happening before your eyes

871
00:33:54,830 --> 00:33:52,260
inside this this Dome Theater you're

872
00:33:57,950 --> 00:33:54,840
sitting in it was just fascinating and

873
00:33:58,970 --> 00:33:57,960
I've those those images those thoughts

874
00:34:00,769 --> 00:33:58,980
of his

875
00:34:02,509 --> 00:34:00,779
have just never left me because I I've

876
00:34:04,190 --> 00:34:02,519
always thought you know I think it's

877
00:34:06,529 --> 00:34:04,200
it's pity he's no longer with us because

878
00:34:08,510 --> 00:34:06,539
I think he I think he was on to

879
00:34:10,970 --> 00:34:08,520
something I think he had a really really

880
00:34:14,750 --> 00:34:10,980
credible and

881
00:34:17,990 --> 00:34:14,760
um really engaging view of

882
00:34:19,849 --> 00:34:18,000
what it is we're dealing with

883
00:34:21,889 --> 00:34:19,859
yeah it's like they're slowing

884
00:34:23,629 --> 00:34:21,899
themselves down just for us to see right

885
00:34:25,790 --> 00:34:23,639
it's uh yeah I didn't want to be seen

886
00:34:27,470 --> 00:34:25,800
they wouldn't it's pretty clear like if

887
00:34:28,730 --> 00:34:27,480
you see a plane going by at night the

888
00:34:30,589 --> 00:34:28,740
only reason you know it's there is you

889
00:34:32,629 --> 00:34:30,599
hear it and you see flashing lights so

890
00:34:35,089 --> 00:34:32,639
if they wanted to be stealth they could

891
00:34:36,109 --> 00:34:35,099
and their technology is such that you

892
00:34:38,030 --> 00:34:36,119
know I'm sure they could just be

893
00:34:39,409 --> 00:34:38,040
invisible if they wanted to and we've

894
00:34:42,470 --> 00:34:39,419
heard a lot of people say that that

895
00:34:44,570 --> 00:34:42,480
they're doing this for us and because

896
00:34:47,089 --> 00:34:44,580
their Tech is so far above our pay grade

897
00:34:48,889 --> 00:34:47,099
they really have to dumb it down and

898
00:34:51,109 --> 00:34:48,899
people have even hypothesized that

899
00:34:52,970 --> 00:34:51,119
that's what Grays are it's a hominid

900
00:34:55,310 --> 00:34:52,980
fabrication of something that will

901
00:34:56,930 --> 00:34:55,320
recognize because if it was just a voice

902
00:34:59,930 --> 00:34:56,940
in your head you'd probably go crazy

903
00:35:01,730 --> 00:34:59,940
right or think you were crazy maybe a

904
00:35:03,650 --> 00:35:01,740
lot of what we see is for our own

905
00:35:05,230 --> 00:35:03,660
benefit and maybe the distance as well

906
00:35:07,790 --> 00:35:05,240
we hear people with medical

907
00:35:10,370 --> 00:35:07,800
ramifications of coming too close to a

908
00:35:11,810 --> 00:35:10,380
craft or being touched by these things

909
00:35:13,970 --> 00:35:11,820
and then they have weird autoimmune

910
00:35:15,710 --> 00:35:13,980
diseases Gary Nolan touched on that so

911
00:35:18,470 --> 00:35:15,720
maybe a lot of what they're doing is for

912
00:35:20,150 --> 00:35:18,480
our own benefit but it's just it's not

913
00:35:22,430 --> 00:35:20,160
stranger than we think it's Stranger

914
00:35:23,329 --> 00:35:22,440
than we can think and we may never get

915
00:35:25,790 --> 00:35:23,339
the answer

916
00:35:29,210 --> 00:35:25,800
yeah you you had said something about

917
00:35:30,589 --> 00:35:29,220
orbs earlier right did you yeah I've got

918
00:35:38,349 --> 00:35:30,599
an herb story

919
00:35:43,510 --> 00:35:41,270
that's kind of open to interpretation no

920
00:35:46,430 --> 00:35:43,520
here's what here's what happened so so

921
00:35:48,890 --> 00:35:46,440
as I was trying to finish my book to

922
00:35:51,050 --> 00:35:48,900
meet my Publisher's deadline I took a

923
00:35:52,670 --> 00:35:51,060
leave of absence from mufon because it

924
00:35:55,849 --> 00:35:52,680
was just sucking up too much of my time

925
00:35:57,790 --> 00:35:55,859
that I needed for working on the book

926
00:36:01,069 --> 00:35:57,800
um

927
00:36:02,630 --> 00:36:01,079
and so I I sort of dropped out of mufon

928
00:36:05,150 --> 00:36:02,640
for I don't know maybe eight or nine

929
00:36:06,410 --> 00:36:05,160
months and then when I was finished with

930
00:36:07,730 --> 00:36:06,420
the book and sent it off with the

931
00:36:08,990 --> 00:36:07,740
publisher I thought okay I want to get

932
00:36:11,329 --> 00:36:09,000
back into this move on stuff because

933
00:36:12,589 --> 00:36:11,339
it's really been it's been enjoyable and

934
00:36:13,970 --> 00:36:12,599
it's been rewarding and I want to do

935
00:36:19,250 --> 00:36:13,980
some more of it because I want to meet

936
00:36:22,849 --> 00:36:19,260
more UFO Witnesses so I rejoined and and

937
00:36:25,730 --> 00:36:22,859
uh discovered that in my absence the

938
00:36:28,190 --> 00:36:25,740
state of Wisconsin mufon director had

939
00:36:29,870 --> 00:36:28,200
moved on and we had a new acting

940
00:36:31,609 --> 00:36:29,880
director

941
00:36:33,710 --> 00:36:31,619
um so I sort of got introduced to her

942
00:36:34,790 --> 00:36:33,720
and we sort of compared notes and you

943
00:36:36,950 --> 00:36:34,800
know I was like yeah I'm you know I'm

944
00:36:38,870 --> 00:36:36,960
glad to be back I want to please please

945
00:36:40,490 --> 00:36:38,880
start assigning cases to me because I

946
00:36:42,290 --> 00:36:40,500
want to get back into this

947
00:36:44,030 --> 00:36:42,300
and she said okay but you know before

948
00:36:45,710 --> 00:36:44,040
you start that she said I really have to

949
00:36:48,050 --> 00:36:45,720
talk to you about the orbs and I'm like

950
00:36:49,970 --> 00:36:48,060
okay what about the orbs I I don't at

951
00:36:51,710 --> 00:36:49,980
that point I didn't recall any of my

952
00:36:54,170 --> 00:36:51,720
Witnesses ever talking about orbs

953
00:36:56,390 --> 00:36:54,180
honestly 150 cases I don't think a

954
00:36:58,130 --> 00:36:56,400
single person ever talked about orbs but

955
00:37:00,770 --> 00:36:58,140
it turned out this woman who was the new

956
00:37:04,130 --> 00:37:00,780
interim director in Wisconsin was like

957
00:37:05,990 --> 00:37:04,140
all about the orbs and she just started

958
00:37:07,670 --> 00:37:06,000
really criticizing my work and saying

959
00:37:10,190 --> 00:37:07,680
well you obviously don't know what

960
00:37:12,589 --> 00:37:10,200
you're doing because all of these cases

961
00:37:14,569 --> 00:37:12,599
you investigated are obviously orbs but

962
00:37:16,790 --> 00:37:14,579
it happened was she she went back into

963
00:37:20,510 --> 00:37:16,800
my old Case Files

964
00:37:24,290 --> 00:37:20,520
and changed my conclusions are you

965
00:37:26,690 --> 00:37:24,300
serious from unknown to orbs I'm serious

966
00:37:28,790 --> 00:37:26,700
I was so pissed off and I reported it to

967
00:37:31,310 --> 00:37:28,800
my elders at MoveOn nothing ever

968
00:37:33,170 --> 00:37:31,320
happened it was just you know they just

969
00:37:34,609 --> 00:37:33,180
sort of swept its uh I don't know that's

970
00:37:37,130 --> 00:37:34,619
a that's a that's a pretty negative

971
00:37:39,290 --> 00:37:37,140
story but that was my experience I was

972
00:37:41,089 --> 00:37:39,300
and you know and so I dropped back out

973
00:37:43,069 --> 00:37:41,099
of muffin I didn't want to rejoin after

974
00:37:44,390 --> 00:37:43,079
that because I thought this woman was

975
00:37:48,589 --> 00:37:44,400
really

976
00:37:50,270 --> 00:37:48,599
I mean you can't be messing with the

977
00:37:52,490 --> 00:37:50,280
data like that and you can't you can't

978
00:37:54,230 --> 00:37:52,500
how does she know more about these cases

979
00:37:56,390 --> 00:37:54,240
than I do she didn't talk to the witness

980
00:37:59,450 --> 00:37:56,400
yeah right she just went through with

981
00:38:02,569 --> 00:37:59,460
the red pens you know scratched out such

982
00:38:04,550 --> 00:38:02,579
a typical debunker right or what typical

983
00:38:06,710 --> 00:38:04,560
debunker I haven't done any of the work

984
00:38:08,569 --> 00:38:06,720
I have nowhere near the experience at it

985
00:38:10,430 --> 00:38:08,579
that you do but you're wrong my mind's

986
00:38:12,650 --> 00:38:10,440
made up the end of it

987
00:38:14,030 --> 00:38:12,660
and then she started pressuring me a

988
00:38:15,950 --> 00:38:14,040
friend of hers had just written a book

989
00:38:17,750 --> 00:38:15,960
about orbs and she started pressuring me

990
00:38:19,730 --> 00:38:17,760
to buy his book and that's where I was

991
00:38:22,010 --> 00:38:19,740
like you know what

992
00:38:25,329 --> 00:38:22,020
this is this isn't working for me right

993
00:38:28,370 --> 00:38:25,339
now I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna unjoin again

994
00:38:30,589 --> 00:38:28,380
so yeah so that that's my that's my orb

995
00:38:32,390 --> 00:38:30,599
tale of whoa well that left a bit of a

996
00:38:34,130 --> 00:38:32,400
sour taste in your mouth obviously

997
00:38:38,690 --> 00:38:34,140
because that's your introduction to it

998
00:38:40,430 --> 00:38:38,700
it's not not too good yeah yeah but it

999
00:38:42,470 --> 00:38:40,440
it is weird though because what we're

1000
00:38:44,030 --> 00:38:42,480
seeing in the skies now

1001
00:38:46,910 --> 00:38:44,040
um compared to what was seen in the

1002
00:38:50,589 --> 00:38:46,920
skies back in the 50s and 60s it seems

1003
00:38:52,849 --> 00:38:50,599
like I don't know if it's our

1004
00:38:54,589 --> 00:38:52,859
comprehension of what we're seeing that

1005
00:38:55,970 --> 00:38:54,599
is not making sense like if we're you

1006
00:38:57,829 --> 00:38:55,980
know before we didn't understand what

1007
00:39:00,950 --> 00:38:57,839
we're looking at like it seems like

1008
00:39:02,930 --> 00:39:00,960
they've changed from you know the the

1009
00:39:04,849 --> 00:39:02,940
classic Flying Saucer that everybody was

1010
00:39:07,010 --> 00:39:04,859
reporting in the 50s and now we're

1011
00:39:08,810 --> 00:39:07,020
getting these weird shapes Tic Tacs or

1012
00:39:11,329 --> 00:39:08,820
cubes that are flying in the middle of

1013
00:39:13,490 --> 00:39:11,339
the sky or those triangles

1014
00:39:16,130 --> 00:39:13,500
um even the the Phoenix light like a

1015
00:39:17,990 --> 00:39:16,140
massive Boomerang ship that yeah over

1016
00:39:19,130 --> 00:39:18,000
above the city and then make a sound

1017
00:39:21,710 --> 00:39:19,140
like

1018
00:39:23,270 --> 00:39:21,720
that we everybody knows that's not

1019
00:39:25,910 --> 00:39:23,280
normal that that's not a human

1020
00:39:28,310 --> 00:39:25,920
technology and it seems foreign right

1021
00:39:30,230 --> 00:39:28,320
but it's it seems like we have all these

1022
00:39:32,510 --> 00:39:30,240
different crafts and if it was one

1023
00:39:35,089 --> 00:39:32,520
species it would like I said be

1024
00:39:37,010 --> 00:39:35,099
recognizable by their technology over

1025
00:39:39,710 --> 00:39:37,020
and over again but this phenomenon is so

1026
00:39:42,589 --> 00:39:39,720
amazing because it's constantly changing

1027
00:39:44,390 --> 00:39:42,599
it people are saying the same thing yeah

1028
00:39:47,770 --> 00:39:44,400
do you have a theory on that

1029
00:39:50,630 --> 00:39:47,780
no I wish I did

1030
00:39:52,310 --> 00:39:50,640
yeah I've definitely I've definitely

1031
00:39:54,470 --> 00:39:52,320
thought about it and wondered about it

1032
00:39:57,290 --> 00:39:54,480
because it's undeniable I mean it's it

1033
00:40:00,230 --> 00:39:57,300
you can't you can't you can't disagree

1034
00:40:02,089 --> 00:40:00,240
yes they the way these things present

1035
00:40:03,109 --> 00:40:02,099
themselves to us and you know and maybe

1036
00:40:05,270 --> 00:40:03,119
they're presenting themselves

1037
00:40:07,550 --> 00:40:05,280
accidentally or maybe it's intentional

1038
00:40:09,290 --> 00:40:07,560
and it's performative I don't know but

1039
00:40:12,589 --> 00:40:09,300
the way they present themselves to us

1040
00:40:15,290 --> 00:40:12,599
definitely has changed and and to us

1041
00:40:19,130 --> 00:40:15,300
from our limited frame of reference

1042
00:40:21,589 --> 00:40:19,140
it's really hard to understand why

1043
00:40:23,750 --> 00:40:21,599
why they've changed what would be the

1044
00:40:25,550 --> 00:40:23,760
point if you got technology you know

1045
00:40:27,410 --> 00:40:25,560
let's let's assume that it's a nuts and

1046
00:40:29,630 --> 00:40:27,420
bolts bolts craft and it's you know

1047
00:40:32,210 --> 00:40:29,640
controlled by an intelligence and

1048
00:40:34,790 --> 00:40:32,220
intelligent being

1049
00:40:36,349 --> 00:40:34,800
you know if if you've got the know-how

1050
00:40:38,510 --> 00:40:36,359
to to

1051
00:40:40,010 --> 00:40:38,520
you know construct this craft and come

1052
00:40:41,569 --> 00:40:40,020
here to Earth

1053
00:40:43,130 --> 00:40:41,579
you know why do you need to change the

1054
00:40:44,569 --> 00:40:43,140
design it's not like you know it's not

1055
00:40:47,270 --> 00:40:44,579
like Detroit where they changed the

1056
00:40:49,069 --> 00:40:47,280
design of the cars every year well why

1057
00:40:51,650 --> 00:40:49,079
are you know why did they start out as

1058
00:40:54,349 --> 00:40:51,660
saucers and cigars and other triangles

1059
00:40:55,450 --> 00:40:54,359
and Delta wings and and

1060
00:40:58,130 --> 00:40:55,460
yeah

1061
00:40:59,750 --> 00:40:58,140
right you can drive yourself nuts trying

1062
00:41:01,250 --> 00:40:59,760
to try to figure stuff like that or

1063
00:41:03,290 --> 00:41:01,260
maybe they're just getting better look

1064
00:41:06,290 --> 00:41:03,300
at our tax 70 years ago and our attack

1065
00:41:08,030 --> 00:41:06,300
now if they're that advanced 70 years

1066
00:41:10,370 --> 00:41:08,040
would probably be the equivalent of a

1067
00:41:11,450 --> 00:41:10,380
thousand years of growth for us right it

1068
00:41:13,910 --> 00:41:11,460
wouldn't be you're probably right

1069
00:41:15,410 --> 00:41:13,920
wouldn't be equal but I wanted to ask

1070
00:41:17,810 --> 00:41:15,420
you about your programs not just to

1071
00:41:20,450 --> 00:41:17,820
promote them I do like them but um

1072
00:41:23,150 --> 00:41:20,460
slightly different angles right with UFO

1073
00:41:24,950 --> 00:41:23,160
witness versus UFOs investigating the

1074
00:41:27,650 --> 00:41:24,960
unknown so tell us a little bit about

1075
00:41:28,849 --> 00:41:27,660
your shows and kind of what you uncover

1076
00:41:30,290 --> 00:41:28,859
on each

1077
00:41:31,849 --> 00:41:30,300
well

1078
00:41:36,890 --> 00:41:31,859
um shortly after my book was published

1079
00:41:38,810 --> 00:41:36,900
that was 2017. uh my uh my agent and I

1080
00:41:41,390 --> 00:41:38,820
started talking to this production

1081
00:41:42,950 --> 00:41:41,400
company anomaly entertainment uh there

1082
00:41:44,450 --> 00:41:42,960
there's a couple of producers from the

1083
00:41:47,270 --> 00:41:44,460
Science Channel who started their own

1084
00:41:49,609 --> 00:41:47,280
production company and and specialized

1085
00:41:51,710 --> 00:41:49,619
in paranormal stuff and Shark Week

1086
00:41:54,349 --> 00:41:51,720
they've got two areas of specialization

1087
00:41:56,089 --> 00:41:54,359
I always thought that was kind of okay

1088
00:41:58,490 --> 00:41:56,099
um but we went back and forth with

1089
00:42:00,710 --> 00:41:58,500
anomaly for a while about whether there

1090
00:42:01,730 --> 00:42:00,720
was a way to you know to use material in

1091
00:42:04,069 --> 00:42:01,740
my book

1092
00:42:05,930 --> 00:42:04,079
or material not my Approach actually was

1093
00:42:07,430 --> 00:42:05,940
you know I've got so much stuff that I

1094
00:42:09,109 --> 00:42:07,440
couldn't include in the book because I

1095
00:42:11,329 --> 00:42:09,119
was already over my word count and they

1096
00:42:13,069 --> 00:42:11,339
wouldn't let me add anything more so

1097
00:42:15,650 --> 00:42:13,079
I've got all sorts of really compelling

1098
00:42:18,170 --> 00:42:15,660
UFO stories in my file cabinet that I've

1099
00:42:20,510 --> 00:42:18,180
never shared with anyone

1100
00:42:23,089 --> 00:42:20,520
um so that was my approach to anomaly

1101
00:42:26,810 --> 00:42:23,099
and they bit eventually and the series

1102
00:42:29,390 --> 00:42:26,820
started to develop it sort of lost lost

1103
00:42:31,430 --> 00:42:29,400
my original idea at some point or

1104
00:42:32,630 --> 00:42:31,440
another you know because once more

1105
00:42:34,670 --> 00:42:32,640
people start to get involved in

1106
00:42:36,829 --> 00:42:34,680
developing the project then you you know

1107
00:42:38,990 --> 00:42:36,839
everybody's opinion everybody has some

1108
00:42:40,730 --> 00:42:39,000
input and you know the nature of the

1109
00:42:43,190 --> 00:42:40,740
storyline changes the big thing I wanted

1110
00:42:45,470 --> 00:42:43,200
out of UFO witness though that I was

1111
00:42:47,990 --> 00:42:45,480
very happy with because I thought we did

1112
00:42:49,490 --> 00:42:48,000
accomplish it was you mayor if you've

1113
00:42:51,290 --> 00:42:49,500
seen the show lately in the first couple

1114
00:42:54,349 --> 00:42:51,300
episodes we featured this lovely lady

1115
00:42:56,329 --> 00:42:54,359
named Jenny zeidman she's passed away

1116
00:42:59,990 --> 00:42:56,339
since then but at the time along with

1117
00:43:02,150 --> 00:43:00,000
Robert Colonel Robert's friend Jenny was

1118
00:43:05,930 --> 00:43:02,160
the oldest surviving Project Blue Book

1119
00:43:08,030 --> 00:43:05,940
investigator and I I met her in the

1120
00:43:11,450 --> 00:43:08,040
course of writing my book in fact it's

1121
00:43:13,069 --> 00:43:11,460
one of my one of my favorite stories is

1122
00:43:14,569 --> 00:43:13,079
um I tried and tried and tried to

1123
00:43:16,790 --> 00:43:14,579
interview her when I was writing the

1124
00:43:18,770 --> 00:43:16,800
book and I just I never made any

1125
00:43:21,470 --> 00:43:18,780
progress

1126
00:43:23,270 --> 00:43:21,480
um I talked with her once very briefly

1127
00:43:26,030 --> 00:43:23,280
and I said I'm you know I'm writing a

1128
00:43:27,589 --> 00:43:26,040
biography of your friend Ellen heineck I

1129
00:43:29,030 --> 00:43:27,599
would love to interview you and she said

1130
00:43:30,829 --> 00:43:29,040
well you know I've already written about

1131
00:43:33,650 --> 00:43:30,839
that part of my life it's all been

1132
00:43:35,089 --> 00:43:33,660
published in the Ohio mufon Journal you

1133
00:43:37,010 --> 00:43:35,099
know look that over feel free to quote

1134
00:43:38,870 --> 00:43:37,020
me from there that's all you want and I

1135
00:43:40,849 --> 00:43:38,880
said well I really appreciate that but I

1136
00:43:42,950 --> 00:43:40,859
said I'd still I'd love to hear

1137
00:43:44,630 --> 00:43:42,960
your thoughts now because now it's like

1138
00:43:46,069 --> 00:43:44,640
30 years later what you know what do you

1139
00:43:49,309 --> 00:43:46,079
think about the phenomena now and she

1140
00:43:50,450 --> 00:43:49,319
hung up on me and I said you know I sat

1141
00:43:51,710 --> 00:43:50,460
there all the way phone for a few

1142
00:43:54,349 --> 00:43:51,720
seconds

1143
00:43:56,630 --> 00:43:54,359
should I call her back and try again

1144
00:43:58,490 --> 00:43:56,640
but I just thought no I mean obviously

1145
00:44:01,250 --> 00:43:58,500
she wants to leave the past in the past

1146
00:44:03,710 --> 00:44:01,260
and I I need to respect that so

1147
00:44:05,450 --> 00:44:03,720
reluctantly I gave up in the idea of

1148
00:44:07,190 --> 00:44:05,460
interviewing Jenny but I was able to use

1149
00:44:09,170 --> 00:44:07,200
some of her quotes from her writing so

1150
00:44:10,849 --> 00:44:09,180
that it all worked out all right

1151
00:44:12,829 --> 00:44:10,859
but then a couple weeks after the book

1152
00:44:14,450 --> 00:44:12,839
was published I got I got an email from

1153
00:44:17,809 --> 00:44:14,460
Jenny's son

1154
00:44:19,970 --> 00:44:17,819
uh Barry and he said hey I'm Jenny

1155
00:44:21,349 --> 00:44:19,980
Zeidman's son she'd like to talk to you

1156
00:44:24,050 --> 00:44:21,359
about your book would you be free to

1157
00:44:25,970 --> 00:44:24,060
talk to her sometime can I you know send

1158
00:44:28,130 --> 00:44:25,980
her your contact info

1159
00:44:30,349 --> 00:44:28,140
and I honestly I was scared to death

1160
00:44:33,109 --> 00:44:30,359
because I was like oh

1161
00:44:35,450 --> 00:44:33,119
what does she want to talk to me about

1162
00:44:37,550 --> 00:44:35,460
concerning my books but we set it up and

1163
00:44:40,069 --> 00:44:37,560
I got on the phone or actually no we

1164
00:44:43,250 --> 00:44:40,079
emailed at that point

1165
00:44:45,349 --> 00:44:43,260
um and she said Mark I just wanted you

1166
00:44:48,290 --> 00:44:45,359
to know I just read your book

1167
00:44:50,450 --> 00:44:48,300
and she said you wrote Alan exactly as I

1168
00:44:53,450 --> 00:44:50,460
remembered him and I just wanted to

1169
00:44:55,250 --> 00:44:53,460
thank you for that so oh wow wow that's

1170
00:44:57,410 --> 00:44:55,260
that's the best fan mail I've ever

1171
00:44:59,150 --> 00:44:57,420
gotten yeah yeah and then a couple weeks

1172
00:45:01,670 --> 00:44:59,160
later she wrote another email and she

1173
00:45:04,069 --> 00:45:01,680
said she said well Mark I just finished

1174
00:45:06,230 --> 00:45:04,079
reading the book for the second time and

1175
00:45:08,210 --> 00:45:06,240
for the second time I was indeed I was

1176
00:45:08,870 --> 00:45:08,220
in tears by the time I was done with the

1177
00:45:11,329 --> 00:45:08,880
book

1178
00:45:12,950 --> 00:45:11,339
so I felt great about that and so I made

1179
00:45:15,970 --> 00:45:12,960
it my mission that I wanted to get Jenny

1180
00:45:19,370 --> 00:45:15,980
zeidman on TV to talk about her amazing

1181
00:45:21,230 --> 00:45:19,380
experiences working with Dr heineck and

1182
00:45:24,349 --> 00:45:21,240
so we ultimately succeeded in that in

1183
00:45:25,849 --> 00:45:24,359
the first season of UFO witness uh we

1184
00:45:27,170 --> 00:45:25,859
have Jenny in the first couple of

1185
00:45:29,030 --> 00:45:27,180
episodes

1186
00:45:31,130 --> 00:45:29,040
um at this point she had gotten pretty

1187
00:45:32,930 --> 00:45:31,140
old and frail so she's a little slow to

1188
00:45:34,930 --> 00:45:32,940
respond to questions and stuff You Can

1189
00:45:37,790 --> 00:45:34,940
Tell She's you know she's getting tired

1190
00:45:40,190 --> 00:45:37,800
so I would have loved to interview her

1191
00:45:41,089 --> 00:45:40,200
for like three or four days

1192
00:45:43,130 --> 00:45:41,099
um

1193
00:45:44,450 --> 00:45:43,140
she just had such Amazing Stories to

1194
00:45:46,250 --> 00:45:44,460
Tell and we couldn't we couldn't use

1195
00:45:48,589 --> 00:45:46,260
them all we could only use a fraction of

1196
00:45:50,990 --> 00:45:48,599
him really but so I was really thrilled

1197
00:45:53,210 --> 00:45:51,000
that we succeeded in getting Jenny on TV

1198
00:45:55,190 --> 00:45:53,220
but also disappointed that we didn't get

1199
00:45:58,130 --> 00:45:55,200
her on TV enough because shortly after

1200
00:46:00,050 --> 00:45:58,140
that she passed away so but at least we

1201
00:46:02,569 --> 00:46:00,060
got some of her wisdom on TV and I'm

1202
00:46:05,870 --> 00:46:02,579
very proud of that fact so that's UFO

1203
00:46:08,510 --> 00:46:05,880
witness the new documentary UFOs

1204
00:46:11,089 --> 00:46:08,520
uh investigating the unknown

1205
00:46:11,750 --> 00:46:11,099
completely different trajectory

1206
00:46:13,910 --> 00:46:11,760
um

1207
00:46:16,250 --> 00:46:13,920
a year and a half ago I got a call from

1208
00:46:17,450 --> 00:46:16,260
a TV producer saying hi Mark I'm I'm

1209
00:46:21,670 --> 00:46:17,460
working with Leslie Kane we're

1210
00:46:24,650 --> 00:46:21,680
developing this UFO documentary for CNN

1211
00:46:26,930 --> 00:46:24,660
and uh Leslie said you're the guy to

1212
00:46:29,450 --> 00:46:26,940
talk to about you know about UFO history

1213
00:46:31,190 --> 00:46:29,460
and about jln hiding in particular

1214
00:46:33,530 --> 00:46:31,200
so we set up this interview it was

1215
00:46:35,690 --> 00:46:33,540
really it was crazy they sent an entire

1216
00:46:36,410 --> 00:46:35,700
TV crew they took over my house for a

1217
00:46:39,370 --> 00:46:36,420
day

1218
00:46:42,170 --> 00:46:39,380
the interview lasted six hours

1219
00:46:44,329 --> 00:46:42,180
and but it was a great experience but

1220
00:46:46,790 --> 00:46:44,339
then the show got put on the Shelf CNN

1221
00:46:47,750 --> 00:46:46,800
had this huge management shake-up last

1222
00:46:50,150 --> 00:46:47,760
year

1223
00:46:52,309 --> 00:46:50,160
they threw away all sorts of programming

1224
00:46:53,630 --> 00:46:52,319
that nobody has ever seen and we were

1225
00:46:56,210 --> 00:46:53,640
just worried that that was going to

1226
00:46:58,370 --> 00:46:56,220
happen with this documentary well about

1227
00:46:59,630 --> 00:46:58,380
less than a month ago I got an email out

1228
00:47:01,490 --> 00:46:59,640
of the blue from one of the producers

1229
00:47:05,450 --> 00:47:01,500
saying Mark it's on we found a home at

1230
00:47:07,190 --> 00:47:05,460
National Geographic TV and Hulu and here

1231
00:47:08,870 --> 00:47:07,200
are the air dates for when the when the

1232
00:47:12,650 --> 00:47:08,880
episodes are going to Premiere it on Nat

1233
00:47:14,450 --> 00:47:12,660
Geo so that was you know that's just the

1234
00:47:16,609 --> 00:47:14,460
last couple of weeks and that was just a

1235
00:47:17,809 --> 00:47:16,619
huge huge thrill to finally have that

1236
00:47:20,329 --> 00:47:17,819
show

1237
00:47:21,890 --> 00:47:20,339
get out to where people can see it it's

1238
00:47:23,990 --> 00:47:21,900
I'm still kind of I'm still pretty

1239
00:47:25,550 --> 00:47:24,000
thrilled about that because I am very

1240
00:47:27,290 --> 00:47:25,560
happy with the show

1241
00:47:28,970 --> 00:47:27,300
um you know there are different segments

1242
00:47:30,589 --> 00:47:28,980
of the show offering different points of

1243
00:47:31,970 --> 00:47:30,599
view and of course I don't always agree

1244
00:47:33,650 --> 00:47:31,980
with this person they don't always agree

1245
00:47:35,630 --> 00:47:33,660
with me that comes with the territory

1246
00:47:37,010 --> 00:47:35,640
but for the for the most part though I

1247
00:47:39,470 --> 00:47:37,020
thought I thought the show was really

1248
00:47:42,230 --> 00:47:39,480
effective you know Leslie described it

1249
00:47:44,329 --> 00:47:42,240
as sort of a UFO's 101 for people who

1250
00:47:46,130 --> 00:47:44,339
are interested and curious but don't

1251
00:47:47,809 --> 00:47:46,140
know a whole lot about it and I think on

1252
00:47:51,109 --> 00:47:47,819
that level I think the show is really a

1253
00:47:52,849 --> 00:47:51,119
a snatching success I think I think

1254
00:47:54,710 --> 00:47:52,859
everyone on it you know should be really

1255
00:47:57,410 --> 00:47:54,720
proud of their contribution of the show

1256
00:48:00,470 --> 00:47:57,420
I I know I am I'm really really thrilled

1257
00:48:02,150 --> 00:48:00,480
with how that showing it up yeah and you

1258
00:48:03,470 --> 00:48:02,160
know and it's you know I'm and of course

1259
00:48:06,109 --> 00:48:03,480
I'm just getting really nice reviews

1260
00:48:08,150 --> 00:48:06,119
which of course I eat that up you know

1261
00:48:09,890 --> 00:48:08,160
I've had a couple people emailing me and

1262
00:48:11,750 --> 00:48:09,900
say you know I wasn't I didn't know much

1263
00:48:13,550 --> 00:48:11,760
about you before I watched the show but

1264
00:48:14,870 --> 00:48:13,560
now I you know I I just ordered your

1265
00:48:16,609 --> 00:48:14,880
book and

1266
00:48:18,770 --> 00:48:16,619
you know to an author that you know it's

1267
00:48:20,630 --> 00:48:18,780
music to your ears you're buying my book

1268
00:48:22,849 --> 00:48:20,640
that's great

1269
00:48:24,349 --> 00:48:22,859
well congrats on that it's uh it looks

1270
00:48:26,569 --> 00:48:24,359
good on you you're very humbled down to

1271
00:48:28,430 --> 00:48:26,579
earth guy I wanted to have you on the

1272
00:48:30,530 --> 00:48:28,440
show just because you've done a lot

1273
00:48:32,390 --> 00:48:30,540
you're not out there you know puffing up

1274
00:48:34,190 --> 00:48:32,400
your chest you're you're doing projects

1275
00:48:35,930 --> 00:48:34,200
that are highlighting other people and

1276
00:48:37,490 --> 00:48:35,940
their work but there's always people

1277
00:48:39,530 --> 00:48:37,500
behind the scenes and we don't see them

1278
00:48:41,450 --> 00:48:39,540
on the screen always and I know you do

1279
00:48:43,730 --> 00:48:41,460
appear in some of the episodes on your

1280
00:48:45,770 --> 00:48:43,740
own shows but very little you kind of

1281
00:48:47,870 --> 00:48:45,780
like to sit back and uh I've always been

1282
00:48:49,250 --> 00:48:47,880
thought you were very well spoken and I

1283
00:48:52,010 --> 00:48:49,260
thought today was uh you know it's

1284
00:48:53,569 --> 00:48:52,020
important the media we get a lot of it

1285
00:48:54,890 --> 00:48:53,579
we can't trust or many people don't

1286
00:48:56,750 --> 00:48:54,900
trust it you know you can't listen to

1287
00:48:58,550 --> 00:48:56,760
the news hold on listen to CNN well then

1288
00:49:01,309 --> 00:48:58,560
where do you go for valuable information

1289
00:49:04,190 --> 00:49:01,319
and Jason and I are proud that our show

1290
00:49:06,410 --> 00:49:04,200
offers that we we vet everybody we don't

1291
00:49:08,450 --> 00:49:06,420
bring people on and if they are you know

1292
00:49:09,950 --> 00:49:08,460
opinionated that's okay they don't have

1293
00:49:12,170 --> 00:49:09,960
to agree with us we don't have to agree

1294
00:49:13,790 --> 00:49:12,180
with them and there's many thousands of

1295
00:49:15,290 --> 00:49:13,800
people that listen to us and I'm sure

1296
00:49:17,510 --> 00:49:15,300
half of them agree and half of the

1297
00:49:19,730 --> 00:49:17,520
others don't agree so it's good for the

1298
00:49:23,030 --> 00:49:19,740
subject and good for you for like

1299
00:49:25,309 --> 00:49:23,040
producing good good content but not woo

1300
00:49:26,750 --> 00:49:25,319
not you know I haven't really heard any

1301
00:49:29,210 --> 00:49:26,760
negative things about either of your

1302
00:49:31,670 --> 00:49:29,220
shows I know UFO witness you cover a lot

1303
00:49:33,890 --> 00:49:31,680
of different species and some people you

1304
00:49:36,170 --> 00:49:33,900
know I've said that sometimes it sounds

1305
00:49:38,150 --> 00:49:36,180
like it's meant to be like scary but the

1306
00:49:41,089 --> 00:49:38,160
whole UFO phenomenon depending on your

1307
00:49:43,730 --> 00:49:41,099
mindset is either amazing and exciting

1308
00:49:46,010 --> 00:49:43,740
or terrifying right yeah or both at the

1309
00:49:47,210 --> 00:49:46,020
same time yeah yeah so I think that's

1310
00:49:49,730 --> 00:49:47,220
how I feel

1311
00:49:52,790 --> 00:49:49,740
yeah I can tell you just quickly though

1312
00:49:54,349 --> 00:49:52,800
about you UFO witness when when the show

1313
00:49:55,609 --> 00:49:54,359
got picked up

1314
00:49:58,069 --> 00:49:55,619
um and we knew that we were going to go

1315
00:50:01,069 --> 00:49:58,079
into production almost the exact same

1316
00:50:03,589 --> 00:50:01,079
moment I was diagnosed with cancer so

1317
00:50:05,450 --> 00:50:03,599
the initial idea with UFO witness was

1318
00:50:07,730 --> 00:50:05,460
that Ben and I were going to be

1319
00:50:09,050 --> 00:50:07,740
um investigating together and then all

1320
00:50:12,170 --> 00:50:09,060
of a sudden I had cancer and it was like

1321
00:50:14,450 --> 00:50:12,180
eh we can't really do that so I but but

1322
00:50:16,490 --> 00:50:14,460
the producers at anomaly entertainment I

1323
00:50:18,230 --> 00:50:16,500
give them huge huge credit they just

1324
00:50:20,390 --> 00:50:18,240
bent over backwards to make sure that I

1325
00:50:22,849 --> 00:50:20,400
could be involved in the show you know

1326
00:50:25,130 --> 00:50:22,859
as much as I possibly could working

1327
00:50:26,750 --> 00:50:25,140
around my my you know my chemotherapy

1328
00:50:28,609 --> 00:50:26,760
treatments all that stuff they were just

1329
00:50:31,490 --> 00:50:28,619
really fantastic about accommodating

1330
00:50:33,589 --> 00:50:31,500
things so I will always be grateful to

1331
00:50:34,970 --> 00:50:33,599
anomaly entertainment for making it work

1332
00:50:36,589 --> 00:50:34,980
out the way they did it was really

1333
00:50:38,630 --> 00:50:36,599
really a good thing I'm very proud of

1334
00:50:40,730 --> 00:50:38,640
the show nice glad to hear you're doing

1335
00:50:42,230 --> 00:50:40,740
better health-wise that's most important

1336
00:50:44,569 --> 00:50:42,240
right none of this matters if you don't

1337
00:50:47,809 --> 00:50:44,579
have your health so yeah and Mark one

1338
00:50:50,650 --> 00:50:47,819
one last question uh on my part uh what

1339
00:50:54,109 --> 00:50:50,660
would you say to the budding you know

1340
00:50:57,109 --> 00:50:54,119
couch investigator uh that you know we

1341
00:50:59,270 --> 00:50:57,119
all used to be at some point uh but get

1342
00:51:01,069 --> 00:50:59,280
out there and and active in the field

1343
00:51:03,770 --> 00:51:01,079
and actually contribute to this because

1344
00:51:05,870 --> 00:51:03,780
it really is with the subject teamwork

1345
00:51:08,089 --> 00:51:05,880
to make the dream work right because

1346
00:51:10,309 --> 00:51:08,099
it's not uh there's a messiah complex

1347
00:51:12,589 --> 00:51:10,319
unfortunately within ufology where

1348
00:51:14,809 --> 00:51:12,599
people are saying that they're they are

1349
00:51:17,450 --> 00:51:14,819
the end-all be-all answer to the

1350
00:51:19,790 --> 00:51:17,460
phenomenon and uh they're in it for

1351
00:51:21,470 --> 00:51:19,800
money and uh unfortunately those are

1352
00:51:24,710 --> 00:51:21,480
people that you know they stop playing

1353
00:51:26,930 --> 00:51:24,720
with the team and went on their own so

1354
00:51:28,849 --> 00:51:26,940
uh what advice would you give to

1355
00:51:32,210 --> 00:51:28,859
somebody who wants to get involved in

1356
00:51:33,950 --> 00:51:32,220
this has no experience in it but really

1357
00:51:36,230 --> 00:51:33,960
wants to be active how how would they

1358
00:51:40,730 --> 00:51:38,809
I I think as much you know I've I've I

1359
00:51:45,049 --> 00:51:40,740
have voiced a couple of complaints about

1360
00:51:46,910 --> 00:51:45,059
mufon but just the same mufon is

1361
00:51:48,349 --> 00:51:46,920
you know the I don't want to say they're

1362
00:51:50,990 --> 00:51:48,359
the only game in town but they're

1363
00:51:52,549 --> 00:51:51,000
they're certainly circles yeah yeah

1364
00:51:54,710 --> 00:51:52,559
they're closed they're close to being

1365
00:51:57,109 --> 00:51:54,720
the only show in town and and they do do

1366
00:51:58,370 --> 00:51:57,119
a lot of good things there's also the uh

1367
00:52:01,089 --> 00:51:58,380
oh gosh I should have written it down

1368
00:52:04,430 --> 00:52:01,099
because I can never remember the name

1369
00:52:08,690 --> 00:52:04,440
but there's also a really really

1370
00:52:10,790 --> 00:52:08,700
interesting incredible UAP study group

1371
00:52:11,990 --> 00:52:10,800
um oh gosh I'm kicking myself now I

1372
00:52:13,970 --> 00:52:12,000
should I should have looked this up and

1373
00:52:15,049 --> 00:52:13,980
written it down before we talked do you

1374
00:52:16,609 --> 00:52:15,059
know the group I'm talking about you

1375
00:52:20,150 --> 00:52:16,619
talk about the scientific Coalition for

1376
00:52:22,069 --> 00:52:20,160
UOP studies yes that is yeah that's it I

1377
00:52:24,589 --> 00:52:22,079
pulled the Louie Louie usually Louise

1378
00:52:26,930 --> 00:52:24,599
the guy that knows all this time yeah

1379
00:52:28,490 --> 00:52:26,940
yeah I went to their first I went to

1380
00:52:31,309 --> 00:52:28,500
their first gathering in Huntsville oh

1381
00:52:33,470 --> 00:52:31,319
gosh it's I think three two three maybe

1382
00:52:35,210 --> 00:52:33,480
three years ago now uh and I haven't

1383
00:52:37,309 --> 00:52:35,220
been able to go since again in part

1384
00:52:40,370 --> 00:52:37,319
because just because of my medical stuff

1385
00:52:42,589 --> 00:52:40,380
but um but I went to their first uh

1386
00:52:44,030 --> 00:52:42,599
their first events in Huntsville and I

1387
00:52:46,490 --> 00:52:44,040
loved it I had a great time there there

1388
00:52:48,589 --> 00:52:46,500
was such a fascinating mix of people

1389
00:52:51,230 --> 00:52:48,599
uh some really great presentations

1390
00:52:53,210 --> 00:52:51,240
really great conversations that was

1391
00:52:55,490 --> 00:52:53,220
really good so getting in touch with

1392
00:52:57,170 --> 00:52:55,500
them and also you know this is I'm

1393
00:52:59,809 --> 00:52:57,180
answering this in terms of just learning

1394
00:53:02,569 --> 00:52:59,819
more about the phenomenon but also who

1395
00:53:04,970 --> 00:53:02,579
to report to if you have encountered

1396
00:53:07,609 --> 00:53:04,980
something unusual in the sky that you

1397
00:53:09,349 --> 00:53:07,619
don't understand yeah you know these are

1398
00:53:11,390 --> 00:53:09,359
the people you should go through also

1399
00:53:13,970 --> 00:53:11,400
the center for UFO studies which I

1400
00:53:15,309 --> 00:53:13,980
mentioned before uh Allen heineck's UFO

1401
00:53:17,930 --> 00:53:15,319
Foundation they're still in Chicago

1402
00:53:22,069 --> 00:53:17,940
they're in a much reduced form they're

1403
00:53:24,890 --> 00:53:22,079
basically you know stacks of files in uh

1404
00:53:27,530 --> 00:53:24,900
people's basements David Marler has been

1405
00:53:30,790 --> 00:53:27,540
doing a fantastic job with digitizing

1406
00:53:33,829 --> 00:53:30,800
and preserving this mountain of

1407
00:53:35,750 --> 00:53:33,839
historical uh papers that belong to

1408
00:53:38,329 --> 00:53:35,760
kufos because it's so much of it as

1409
00:53:41,809 --> 00:53:38,339
Allen's professional papers

1410
00:53:44,630 --> 00:53:41,819
um so those would be the big three the

1411
00:53:46,609 --> 00:53:44,640
UFO studies which of course I've already

1412
00:53:49,069 --> 00:53:46,619
forgotten their name again scientific

1413
00:53:50,990 --> 00:53:49,079
Coalition for UAP studies right right

1414
00:53:53,569 --> 00:53:51,000
okay I'll try to I'll try to remember

1415
00:53:56,750 --> 00:53:53,579
that so there's that I think is what

1416
00:53:58,849 --> 00:53:56,760
they abbreviate as okay

1417
00:54:00,829 --> 00:53:58,859
well there's them there's mufon and

1418
00:54:02,809 --> 00:54:00,839
there's goofos those would be

1419
00:54:04,670 --> 00:54:02,819
those would be the best places and they

1420
00:54:05,930 --> 00:54:04,680
all have informative websites you know

1421
00:54:08,150 --> 00:54:05,940
uh

1422
00:54:09,710 --> 00:54:08,160
easiest place to you know read up read

1423
00:54:11,990 --> 00:54:09,720
about the organization see if they think

1424
00:54:13,250 --> 00:54:12,000
they might be a fit and again you know I

1425
00:54:14,870 --> 00:54:13,260
just want to go back to what I said

1426
00:54:16,970 --> 00:54:14,880
earlier about those two questions that

1427
00:54:21,230 --> 00:54:16,980
people would always ask me what did I

1428
00:54:24,410 --> 00:54:21,240
see has anyone else seen it it turns out

1429
00:54:26,569 --> 00:54:24,420
a lot of times after you've like me

1430
00:54:28,670 --> 00:54:26,579
after I had been doing investigating for

1431
00:54:30,349 --> 00:54:28,680
a move on after a while you know at

1432
00:54:32,089 --> 00:54:30,359
first I wouldn't be able to answer that

1433
00:54:33,950 --> 00:54:32,099
question but over time after I had

1434
00:54:36,349 --> 00:54:33,960
investigated a number of cases I would

1435
00:54:38,510 --> 00:54:36,359
be able to say you know what yes

1436
00:54:40,370 --> 00:54:38,520
I just had a case like this a couple of

1437
00:54:42,349 --> 00:54:40,380
weeks ago it was under very similar

1438
00:54:43,849 --> 00:54:42,359
circumstances the object they described

1439
00:54:45,470 --> 00:54:43,859
was very similar to what you're

1440
00:54:48,710 --> 00:54:45,480
describing to me now

1441
00:54:50,809 --> 00:54:48,720
and that that moment of being able to

1442
00:54:52,190 --> 00:54:50,819
validate you know instead of just

1443
00:54:53,809 --> 00:54:52,200
nodding along and saying well I'll look

1444
00:54:56,030 --> 00:54:53,819
into that you know to be able to say you

1445
00:54:58,430 --> 00:54:56,040
know what I can I have two pieces of the

1446
00:55:01,130 --> 00:54:58,440
puzzle that I can put together for you

1447
00:55:04,790 --> 00:55:01,140
that's really a cool moment yeah and you

1448
00:55:06,770 --> 00:55:04,800
feel like you're contributing to the

1449
00:55:08,930 --> 00:55:06,780
data that is it needed to be collected

1450
00:55:10,970 --> 00:55:08,940
on that right so yeah it's not big

1451
00:55:12,950 --> 00:55:10,980
picture data it's you know it's it's

1452
00:55:14,930 --> 00:55:12,960
very small scale but it's the human

1453
00:55:16,250 --> 00:55:14,940
scale you know yeah

1454
00:55:17,990 --> 00:55:16,260
and maybe that's what they're looking

1455
00:55:19,970 --> 00:55:18,000
for they just want to be validated that

1456
00:55:22,010 --> 00:55:19,980
I'm not crazy others have seen the same

1457
00:55:23,690 --> 00:55:22,020
and you know yeah I think we're

1458
00:55:26,270 --> 00:55:23,700
counselors sometimes too we have people

1459
00:55:28,430 --> 00:55:26,280
share their experiences with us and it's

1460
00:55:29,930 --> 00:55:28,440
like wow it's a huge compliment you

1461
00:55:31,790 --> 00:55:29,940
trust me enough that you know I'm not

1462
00:55:33,950 --> 00:55:31,800
going to judge you that you get into

1463
00:55:35,990 --> 00:55:33,960
really intimate details and maybe

1464
00:55:37,549 --> 00:55:36,000
they're not maybe not but either way if

1465
00:55:39,890 --> 00:55:37,559
we can be a voice and a shoulder for

1466
00:55:42,109 --> 00:55:39,900
these people that's uh that's a big

1467
00:55:44,630 --> 00:55:42,119
compliment you know it to be handled

1468
00:55:46,910 --> 00:55:44,640
with the utmost care as well absolutely

1469
00:55:48,890 --> 00:55:46,920
lightly so yeah yeah

1470
00:55:50,329 --> 00:55:48,900
perfect and Mark where where can people

1471
00:55:51,950 --> 00:55:50,339
find your work and where where can

1472
00:55:54,710 --> 00:55:51,960
people contact you

1473
00:55:56,870 --> 00:55:54,720
well they can find my book The Close

1474
00:56:00,650 --> 00:55:56,880
Encounters man at any any chain

1475
00:56:02,390 --> 00:56:00,660
Bookstore Barnes and Noble uh Amazon of

1476
00:56:05,510 --> 00:56:02,400
course you can order it on Amazon or

1477
00:56:07,069 --> 00:56:05,520
Goodreads uh also you're in your local

1478
00:56:08,990 --> 00:56:07,079
independent Bookseller I always

1479
00:56:10,849 --> 00:56:09,000
encourage people to shop at Indie book

1480
00:56:12,290 --> 00:56:10,859
sellers so you can find the close

1481
00:56:14,450 --> 00:56:12,300
encounters man

1482
00:56:16,190 --> 00:56:14,460
pretty much anywhere you you find you

1483
00:56:17,569 --> 00:56:16,200
find books or check it out from your

1484
00:56:20,150 --> 00:56:17,579
library

1485
00:56:22,010 --> 00:56:20,160
um and then there is the new show UFOs

1486
00:56:24,049 --> 00:56:22,020
investigating the unknown if you have

1487
00:56:27,170 --> 00:56:24,059
Hulu you can watch it streaming on Hulu

1488
00:56:30,470 --> 00:56:27,180
24 7. I believe the episodes are still

1489
00:56:32,809 --> 00:56:30,480
posted on that Nat Geo TV as well and

1490
00:56:34,370 --> 00:56:32,819
eventually the show will migrate to Vice

1491
00:56:36,470 --> 00:56:34,380
and then after Vice it's going to

1492
00:56:38,210 --> 00:56:36,480
migrate to Disney plus so it's nice a

1493
00:56:39,710 --> 00:56:38,220
lot of coverage nice

1494
00:56:41,569 --> 00:56:39,720
um so yeah so just you know do a search

1495
00:56:44,390 --> 00:56:41,579
for the title of the show and it'll tell

1496
00:56:49,309 --> 00:56:44,400
you where where it's playing on that day

1497
00:56:51,410 --> 00:56:49,319
um and also I am on Twitter at Mark

1498
00:56:54,470 --> 00:56:51,420
O'Connell underscore one and that's

1499
00:56:56,710 --> 00:56:54,480
O'Connell with two ends and two l's

1500
00:57:00,109 --> 00:56:56,720
it's not O'Connor it's not O'Donnell

1501
00:57:01,430 --> 00:57:00,119
it's O'Connell I have that happens all

1502
00:57:03,530 --> 00:57:01,440
the time I always have to throw that in

1503
00:57:05,630 --> 00:57:03,540
there yeah um yeah so that's that's

1504
00:57:06,650 --> 00:57:05,640
where they can follow me I I follow UFO

1505
00:57:10,010 --> 00:57:06,660
Twitter

1506
00:57:12,530 --> 00:57:10,020
um don't always comment it on it a whole

1507
00:57:16,130 --> 00:57:12,540
lot just because it can get kind of

1508
00:57:18,589 --> 00:57:16,140
nasty yeah now and then and I I try to

1509
00:57:20,930 --> 00:57:18,599
avoid that kind of energy when I can so

1510
00:57:23,150 --> 00:57:20,940
yeah so that's what they can find me

1511
00:57:24,950 --> 00:57:23,160
nice well Mark thank you so much for

1512
00:57:27,950 --> 00:57:24,960
coming on the podcast today Louie and I

1513
00:57:30,049 --> 00:57:27,960
are honored to have you on and uh yeah I

1514
00:57:32,390 --> 00:57:30,059
would encourage everybody to uh check

1515
00:57:35,210 --> 00:57:32,400
out the book buy the book uh support the

1516
00:57:37,250 --> 00:57:35,220
author and his research in this uh this

1517
00:57:38,870 --> 00:57:37,260
is an important topic and uh talking

1518
00:57:40,790 --> 00:57:38,880
with people like you that have been you

1519
00:57:43,190 --> 00:57:40,800
know boots on the ground and

1520
00:57:45,290 --> 00:57:43,200
investigating this this is important and

1521
00:57:47,270 --> 00:57:45,300
uh thank you so much for for talking to

1522
00:57:48,829 --> 00:57:47,280
us today and educating us a little bit

1523
00:57:50,329 --> 00:57:48,839
more on the subject

1524
00:57:52,069 --> 00:57:50,339
thanks for having me it's been a

1525
00:57:58,390 --> 00:57:52,079
pleasure guys it's nice to meet you both